Re: Evidence of God

386sx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> Al Evan writes:
> 
> > That is my exact point: "No true atheist claims that there is no god."
> > What's yours?
> 
> Then this would be the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.  If you say "there is a
> God," then an atheist could either say "Nope, there ain't no God," or she
> could say, "I don't believe you."  In the latter case either the onus would
> be on you to do some smooth talking and trying to prove your claim, or you
> could just ignore it altogether and pretend to put the onus back on her by
> telling her she is an atheist (true, because she says she doesn't believe
> you) and that the "true atheists" make the assertion that there is no god
> (false, because you want to weasel out of your burden of proof.)  An atheist
> could either say "There is no God," or "I don't believe you," but you would
> have all atheists saying "There is no God."  Hence, the "no true Scotsman"
> fallacy.
> 
> That is what these folks are trying to tell you.  There are two camps here;
> one of them is saying "I don't believe you," (i.e. the Llama camp) and the
> other is saying "there is no God, and I can back that up, but I don't feel
> like doing that just right now, but please do get it straight what is an
> atheist," (i.e. the Scamper camp.)


386sx,
Thanks for the in-depth explanation of the two trains of thought.  So,
if I understand your explanation, an Atheist can say either of two
things to an assertion that God exists:  "I don't believe you!",
meaning she don't believe the person making the assertion; or, she
could say, "There is no God!" meaning, she don't believe a God exists.
However, in considering the first response-"I don't believe you!"  It
has, as I see it, at least, two meanings:
1.  The speaker could be saying, "I don't believe the asserter
personally"-i.e., the asserter is without credibility-not the
assertion itself.  It says nothing about the assertion.
2.  The unbeliever don't believe the assertion itself:  "I don't
believe God exists.

If consideration 1 is true, then, your argument says nothing about
what an Atheist is or is not, since the statement, "I don't believe
you!" has nothing to do with believing, or not believing, in God, but
everything to do with the personality of the asserter.
If, on the other hand, consideration 2 is true, then, what the atheist
is saying is, "I don't believe God exists!"  But, this is the same
thing as saying, "There is no God!"

Therefore, as far as atheism is concerned, my argument, that there is
no such thing as an atheist who does not say, "I don't believe God
exists!" still stands.  From you arguments I don't see any particular
reason to change my mind.