Re: Evidences of God

On 16 Nov 2003 15:08:03 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (A L), Message ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in alt.atheism;

>Whats genocide? that word caught my eye. I know the meaning suicide
>... sue them by killing urself? ... mmmmmm .... genocide?

from m-w.com

Main Entry: geno·cide
Pronunciation: 'je-n&-"sId
Function: noun
Date: 1944
: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or
cultural group

/end quote

>stoney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>> On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:59:59 -0700, stoney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Message ID:
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in alt.atheism;
>> 
>> >On 13 Oct 2003 14:43:10 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Maria
>> >Underwood), Message ID:
>> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in alt.atheism;
>> >
>> >>stoney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>> >>> On 21 Aug 2003 08:24:18 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Maria
>> >>> Underwood), Message ID:
>> >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in alt.atheism;
>> >
>> >(snip)
>> >
>> >>> Christians don't take their own 'Holy Tome' seriously, so why would a
>> >>> person who is not a follower of that superstition?
>> >>> 
>> >>> I apologize for the lengthy post, but it was necessary.  Please hold any
>> >>> reply until Sept 18 as I will be out of town until then.
>> >>> 
>> >>> Be well.
>>  
>> >>>              Stoney
>>  
>> >>Thanks for your reply.  I haven't responded in a timely manner
>> >>because...well, to be frank - I didn't know what to say.
>> >
>> >And that's fine.  I wasn't sure if my time spent on that post was
>> >worthwile or not.  I'm glad to see it was.  I'm going to try to make
>> >quick points here in an attempt to avoid writing another 'book.'  I can
>> >say more about specific points upon request.
>> >
>> >Let me indicate here that in these posts I'm dealing with the
>> >ramifications and reprecussions of what is being said and illustrating
>> >things from the Christian 'Holy Tome.'
>> >
>> >>I know that there is a lot about religion, esp. Christianity, that
>> >>doesn't make sense.  And I also know that much evil has come from
>> >>organized religion.  But I haven't seen a lot of that personally.
>> >
>> >I would indicate the doctrine of eternal torture is much evil.  That
>> >doctrine is something Christians are personally exposed to.
>> >
>> >>I've seen good come from it.  I've seen addicts use faith in a god to
>> >>overcome addictions.  I've seen those who might have otherwise
>> >>preferred to stay at home - spend money and time helping others.  I've
>> >>seen those who grieved over the departed find peace in the hope of an
>> >>after life.
>> >
>> >A few points, if I may.
>> >
>> >1) Did those addicts "thank god" for addicting them in the first place?
>> >2) Those folks didn't overcome addiction-they changed drugs.
>> >3)  Did they spend money and time to help people out of empathy and
>> >compassion?  Or did they spend it in the hope of avoiding being tortured
>> >for eternity?
>> >4)  A case can be made that it would have been much better for the world
>> >if the currently appointed President would have stayed on the alcohol
>> >and cocaine.
>> >5)  It is the rare item of evil that does not do some good.  For
>> >example, the train schedules in Nazi Germany.  The efficiency was
>> >awesome.
>> >6)  Fantasies can be comforting as well as terrifying.  For instance,
>> >what 'peace' is the living going to have with the deceased loved one in
>> >Hell?
>> >
>> >From my own life:
>> >1)  I've barely survived several times and the progress I've made has
>> >been through my own efforts and the actions/assistance/encouragement of
>> >other people.  (See Adam Marzack's (sp) site for one example).
>> >2)  I've kicked tobacco via my own efforts at a time when there were no
>> >'aids' to quit.
>> >3)  I've kicked alcohol via my own efforts.  I have a very occasional
>> >beer.
>> >4)  I assist people when I can without expecting a reward.  A 'Thank
>> >you' is enough.
>> >5)  Years ago I had to get medical authorization to join a team
>> >searching for a lost child for two days in nasty terrain and weather.
>> >
>> >I've found that, all too often, people sell themselves short.  I found
>> >that out with my cold turkey entry into "The Bay to Breakers" event.
>> >(that story can be found in google archives)
>> >
>> >>Maybe there was no Jesus.  But I've seen *faith in Jesus help people
>> >>to overcome obstacles and use his story to try to love, forgive, and
>> >>heal.  Maybe it's all a fairytale, like Paul Bunyon and his Blue Ox or
>> >>like Santa Claus.  But mythology and fairtale, used as religious
>> >>metaphor, have given hope and meaning to millions.  Is that so bad? 
>> >
>> >And such has slaughtered and tormented millions.  Such has also
>> >generated anguish in the believer searching for 'guidance.'  Once again,
>> >its a 'two-edged' sword.  Missionaries go out on their missions of
>> >cultural genocide.  I don't call that good.
>> >
>> >In my view, if something provides comfort to the individual-that's
>> >great.  The problem occurs when the individual (or group) projects it
>> >'outside.'
>> >
>> >>Maybe there wasn't really a "good samaritan" - but doesn't the parable
>> >>teach us a lesson?
>> >
>> >So do Aesops Fables.
>> >
>> >Except for very few incidents in the Bible (which were stolen from other
>> >cultures/religions) the Bible is the epitome of evil and the lesson that
>> >should be gotten from it is to avoid the tome 'like the plague.'
>> >
>> >>  Maybe there wasn't an immaculate conception - and
>> >>the Son of God wasn't really made flesh - but doesn't holding a
>> >>loving, forgiving, gentle, "perfect" role model help teach our
>> >>children values and morals?
>> >
>> >It's quite clear you are not speaking of the Christian daemon deity.
>> >
>> >Hmmm...values and morals.  What values are taught when the individual is
>> >told over and over again they are not only worthless but that they are
>> >deserving of death for the crime of drawing a first breath?  What values
>> >are taught when they are taught they can't do anything on their own but
>> >must give credit to a fantasy figure?  What values are taught when they
>> >are told over and over again to be grateful for every breath the deity
>> >allows them?
>> >
>> >What 'morals' are taught when anything you do (except say something bad
>> >about the holy spook) is forgiven?  What morals are taught when things
>> >are at the dog training level?
>> >
>> >What is taught when learning and thinking is denigrated/forbidden and
>> >'faith' is elevated to a 'virtue?'
>> >
>> >What morals or values are taught with the denegration of women to the
>> >level of worth less than a cow?  What morals or values are taught with
>> >the encoragement of slavery as well as indicating as long as a beaten
>> >slave lives for more than two days such is legal?  What morals or values
>> >are taught with indicating the selling of rotten meat to those outside
>> >the village is just fine?
>> >
>> >There is more, but I think this gets the point across.
>> >
>> >>I'll admit that there a lots of flaws, inconsistencies and
>> >>contradictions in many theologies.  But I find peace in the metaphor
>> >>of a Prince of Peace. 
>> >
>> >I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
>> >
>> >I have come to turn son against father, daughter against mother, and
>> >daughter in law against mother in law.
>> >
>> >Those who are not for me are against me.
>> >
>> >Those who believe not are already condemned.
>> >
>> >To follow me one must hate their mother and father, sister and brother,
>> >and even their own life before they can pick up their cross and follow
>> >me.
>> >
>> >
>> >"We should always be disposed to believe that that which 
>> >appears to us to be white is really black, if the
>> > hierarchy of the church so decides."
>> >  
>> >- St. Ignatius Loyola
>> >- Exercita spiritualia / 1541
>> >
>> >> Maybe he wasn't real - but trying to believe in
>> >>Him has given me motivation to let go of harsh feelings for those who
>> >>have wronged me.  
>> >
>> >Empathy and compassion isn't sufficient on its own?
>> >
>> >>Maybe there was no Jesus, but praying to Him and
>> >>saying things such as"Jesus, help me to not be selfish and to reach
>> >>out to others" to myself throughout the day has helped me to smile
>> >>more and to pay more attention to the suffering and concerns of
>> >>others.
>> >
>> >Empathy and compassion isn't sufficient on its own?
>> >
>> >If not, then I feel sorry for you.
>> >
>> >>My attempts at faith have moved me to give $ to organizations such as
>> >>Food For The Hungry. 
>> >
>> >/cue Led Zepplins "Stairway to Heaven."
>> >
>> >> If I didn't  think there was a purpose to this
>> >>life - but that we were all just animals living out pointless lives
>> >>until we die and fade into oblivion - I might care less about others
>> >>who was suffering and just use my resources to satisfy my own
>> >>hedonistic desires.
>> >
>> >Hedonistic desires.  Just animals.  Ouch.  There are those who cannot be
>> >trusted to walk 'off leash.'  More on this in a minute.
>> >
>> >Let's see.
>> >I have no belief in deity, but
>> >
>> >1)  Am not hedonistic
>> >2)  Do not see people as something to be used and discarded.
>> >3)  Do not steal.
>> >4)  Have no interest in smiting people.
>> >5)  Lend an assist when I can.
>> >6)  Don't get my sense of self-worth or validation based on monster
>> >houses, fancy cars, size of bank account, or what power/control I have
>> >over others.
>> >
>> >Al Klein has mentioned a family is living in a house he owns and he does
>> >not charge them rent.
>> >
>> >'Purpose.'
>> >
>> >Life has no purpose.  Life is.  If you need a 'purpose' then why not
>> >generate it for yourself and change it at need?
>> >
>> >Based on the Christian superstition-life has no purpose.  There isn't a
>> >single thing the critter couldn't do much more efficiently with the mere
>> >thought.
>> >
>> >Are we animals?  Certainly.  However, some of us can think, consider,
>> >the ramifications and reprecussions of things.  To my mind such
>> >abilities are a hefty asset.  To thiesm such is a liability.
>> >
>> >>  Giving life a perspective of eternity and a
>> >>framework in which to help and aid others, from my view, makes faith
>> >>in the false an OK thing. 
>> >
>> >It can, yes.  However, Christianity really screwed up with the binary
>> >mindset-that of heaven/hell.  According to Christianity, there is
>> >eternal life for all.  The only item (which is predetermined) is where
>> >you will spend that eternity.  It's one of two locations.
>> >
>> >Christianity is the epitome of selfishness.  Coveting is a 'sin' in the
>> >Christian superstition.  Christians have a hefty motivation to do what
>> >they see as "God's Will(tm)" in the hope of a 'reward.'  Said reward is
>> >not to be tortured for eternity.
>> >
>> >Christianity is the epitome of selfishness.  The 'brass ring' of eternal
>> >life and the avoidance of eternal torture is a hefty motivation.  Said
>> >'prize' is only good for the person it is issued to.
>> >
>> >An example of selflessness would be a Christian who had the 'prize'
>> >giving it to a person in 'Hell' and taking their place.  In the
>> >Christian fictional world *that* person is one I would have one hell of
>> >a lot of respect for.
>> >
>> >> If believing in Tiamat the Dragon helps one
>> >>to help others and try to make this world a better place - then I say
>> >>go ahead and believe.  But if you don't want to believe, that's OK
>> >>too.
>> >
>> >I understand your point, but do want to illustrate something.
>> >
>> >The Bible indicates making the 'world a better place' is done via
>> >genocide.  The Jews are one long-time scapegoat.
>> >
>> >Muslim fundamentalists (some not all) think making the world a better
>> >place comes with utilizing technology against other cultures.  It also
>> >thinks making the world a better place comes from terrorizing their own
>> >population (taliban).
>> >
>> >>I just haven't found another philosophy or creed that gives a solid
>> >>framework for goodness, kindness, or selflessness. 
>> >
>> >"We should always be disposed to believe that that which 
>> >appears to us to be white is really black, if the
>> > hierarchy of the church so decides."
>> >  
>> >- St. Ignatius Loyola
>> >- Exercita spiritualia / 1541
>> >
>> >> And, to me, it's a
>> >>terrible, sad, lonely, and depressing world without such a framework. 
>> >>So I chose to believe.
>> >
>> >Once again, I reiterate such is your perogative.  But I would like to
>> >point out the Christian 'framework' does not qualify as good, kind, or
>> >selfless.  It qualifies for the direct opposite.
>> >
>> >Note:  I've tried very very hard not to, metaphorically, step on your
>> >toes.  I hope I was successful.
>> 
>> So much for discussion.
>>          
>> 
>>    
>>              Stoney
>> "Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
>>                and
>>           SCAMPERMEISTER!"
>> 
>> When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
>> When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
>> When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
>> /end humour alert
>> 
>> alt.atheism military veteran #11
>> {so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}

         

   
             Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
               and
          SCAMPERMEISTER!"

When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert

alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}