Re: Evidences of God

Whats genocide? that word caught my eye. I know the meaning suicide
... sue them by killing urself? ... mmmmmm .... genocide?

stoney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:59:59 -0700, stoney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Message ID:
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in alt.atheism;
> 
> >On 13 Oct 2003 14:43:10 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Maria
> >Underwood), Message ID:
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in alt.atheism;
> >
> >>stoney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> >>> On 21 Aug 2003 08:24:18 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Maria
> >>> Underwood), Message ID:
> >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in alt.atheism;
> >
> >(snip)
> >
> >>> Christians don't take their own 'Holy Tome' seriously, so why would a
> >>> person who is not a follower of that superstition?
> >>> 
> >>> I apologize for the lengthy post, but it was necessary.  Please hold any
> >>> reply until Sept 18 as I will be out of town until then.
> >>> 
> >>> Be well.
>  
> >>>              Stoney
>  
> >>Thanks for your reply.  I haven't responded in a timely manner
> >>because...well, to be frank - I didn't know what to say.
> >
> >And that's fine.  I wasn't sure if my time spent on that post was
> >worthwile or not.  I'm glad to see it was.  I'm going to try to make
> >quick points here in an attempt to avoid writing another 'book.'  I can
> >say more about specific points upon request.
> >
> >Let me indicate here that in these posts I'm dealing with the
> >ramifications and reprecussions of what is being said and illustrating
> >things from the Christian 'Holy Tome.'
> >
> >>I know that there is a lot about religion, esp. Christianity, that
> >>doesn't make sense.  And I also know that much evil has come from
> >>organized religion.  But I haven't seen a lot of that personally.
> >
> >I would indicate the doctrine of eternal torture is much evil.  That
> >doctrine is something Christians are personally exposed to.
> >
> >>I've seen good come from it.  I've seen addicts use faith in a god to
> >>overcome addictions.  I've seen those who might have otherwise
> >>preferred to stay at home - spend money and time helping others.  I've
> >>seen those who grieved over the departed find peace in the hope of an
> >>after life.
> >
> >A few points, if I may.
> >
> >1) Did those addicts "thank god" for addicting them in the first place?
> >2) Those folks didn't overcome addiction-they changed drugs.
> >3)  Did they spend money and time to help people out of empathy and
> >compassion?  Or did they spend it in the hope of avoiding being tortured
> >for eternity?
> >4)  A case can be made that it would have been much better for the world
> >if the currently appointed President would have stayed on the alcohol
> >and cocaine.
> >5)  It is the rare item of evil that does not do some good.  For
> >example, the train schedules in Nazi Germany.  The efficiency was
> >awesome.
> >6)  Fantasies can be comforting as well as terrifying.  For instance,
> >what 'peace' is the living going to have with the deceased loved one in
> >Hell?
> >
> >From my own life:
> >1)  I've barely survived several times and the progress I've made has
> >been through my own efforts and the actions/assistance/encouragement of
> >other people.  (See Adam Marzack's (sp) site for one example).
> >2)  I've kicked tobacco via my own efforts at a time when there were no
> >'aids' to quit.
> >3)  I've kicked alcohol via my own efforts.  I have a very occasional
> >beer.
> >4)  I assist people when I can without expecting a reward.  A 'Thank
> >you' is enough.
> >5)  Years ago I had to get medical authorization to join a team
> >searching for a lost child for two days in nasty terrain and weather.
> >
> >I've found that, all too often, people sell themselves short.  I found
> >that out with my cold turkey entry into "The Bay to Breakers" event.
> >(that story can be found in google archives)
> >
> >>Maybe there was no Jesus.  But I've seen *faith in Jesus help people
> >>to overcome obstacles and use his story to try to love, forgive, and
> >>heal.  Maybe it's all a fairytale, like Paul Bunyon and his Blue Ox or
> >>like Santa Claus.  But mythology and fairtale, used as religious
> >>metaphor, have given hope and meaning to millions.  Is that so bad? 
> >
> >And such has slaughtered and tormented millions.  Such has also
> >generated anguish in the believer searching for 'guidance.'  Once again,
> >its a 'two-edged' sword.  Missionaries go out on their missions of
> >cultural genocide.  I don't call that good.
> >
> >In my view, if something provides comfort to the individual-that's
> >great.  The problem occurs when the individual (or group) projects it
> >'outside.'
> >
> >>Maybe there wasn't really a "good samaritan" - but doesn't the parable
> >>teach us a lesson?
> >
> >So do Aesops Fables.
> >
> >Except for very few incidents in the Bible (which were stolen from other
> >cultures/religions) the Bible is the epitome of evil and the lesson that
> >should be gotten from it is to avoid the tome 'like the plague.'
> >
> >>  Maybe there wasn't an immaculate conception - and
> >>the Son of God wasn't really made flesh - but doesn't holding a
> >>loving, forgiving, gentle, "perfect" role model help teach our
> >>children values and morals?
> >
> >It's quite clear you are not speaking of the Christian daemon deity.
> >
> >Hmmm...values and morals.  What values are taught when the individual is
> >told over and over again they are not only worthless but that they are
> >deserving of death for the crime of drawing a first breath?  What values
> >are taught when they are taught they can't do anything on their own but
> >must give credit to a fantasy figure?  What values are taught when they
> >are told over and over again to be grateful for every breath the deity
> >allows them?
> >
> >What 'morals' are taught when anything you do (except say something bad
> >about the holy spook) is forgiven?  What morals are taught when things
> >are at the dog training level?
> >
> >What is taught when learning and thinking is denigrated/forbidden and
> >'faith' is elevated to a 'virtue?'
> >
> >What morals or values are taught with the denegration of women to the
> >level of worth less than a cow?  What morals or values are taught with
> >the encoragement of slavery as well as indicating as long as a beaten
> >slave lives for more than two days such is legal?  What morals or values
> >are taught with indicating the selling of rotten meat to those outside
> >the village is just fine?
> >
> >There is more, but I think this gets the point across.
> >
> >>I'll admit that there a lots of flaws, inconsistencies and
> >>contradictions in many theologies.  But I find peace in the metaphor
> >>of a Prince of Peace. 
> >
> >I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
> >
> >I have come to turn son against father, daughter against mother, and
> >daughter in law against mother in law.
> >
> >Those who are not for me are against me.
> >
> >Those who believe not are already condemned.
> >
> >To follow me one must hate their mother and father, sister and brother,
> >and even their own life before they can pick up their cross and follow
> >me.
> >
> >
> >"We should always be disposed to believe that that which 
> >appears to us to be white is really black, if the
> > hierarchy of the church so decides."
> >  
> >- St. Ignatius Loyola
> >- Exercita spiritualia / 1541
> >
> >> Maybe he wasn't real - but trying to believe in
> >>Him has given me motivation to let go of harsh feelings for those who
> >>have wronged me.  
> >
> >Empathy and compassion isn't sufficient on its own?
> >
> >>Maybe there was no Jesus, but praying to Him and
> >>saying things such as"Jesus, help me to not be selfish and to reach
> >>out to others" to myself throughout the day has helped me to smile
> >>more and to pay more attention to the suffering and concerns of
> >>others.
> >
> >Empathy and compassion isn't sufficient on its own?
> >
> >If not, then I feel sorry for you.
> >
> >>My attempts at faith have moved me to give $ to organizations such as
> >>Food For The Hungry. 
> >
> >/cue Led Zepplins "Stairway to Heaven."
> >
> >> If I didn't  think there was a purpose to this
> >>life - but that we were all just animals living out pointless lives
> >>until we die and fade into oblivion - I might care less about others
> >>who was suffering and just use my resources to satisfy my own
> >>hedonistic desires.
> >
> >Hedonistic desires.  Just animals.  Ouch.  There are those who cannot be
> >trusted to walk 'off leash.'  More on this in a minute.
> >
> >Let's see.
> >I have no belief in deity, but
> >
> >1)  Am not hedonistic
> >2)  Do not see people as something to be used and discarded.
> >3)  Do not steal.
> >4)  Have no interest in smiting people.
> >5)  Lend an assist when I can.
> >6)  Don't get my sense of self-worth or validation based on monster
> >houses, fancy cars, size of bank account, or what power/control I have
> >over others.
> >
> >Al Klein has mentioned a family is living in a house he owns and he does
> >not charge them rent.
> >
> >'Purpose.'
> >
> >Life has no purpose.  Life is.  If you need a 'purpose' then why not
> >generate it for yourself and change it at need?
> >
> >Based on the Christian superstition-life has no purpose.  There isn't a
> >single thing the critter couldn't do much more efficiently with the mere
> >thought.
> >
> >Are we animals?  Certainly.  However, some of us can think, consider,
> >the ramifications and reprecussions of things.  To my mind such
> >abilities are a hefty asset.  To thiesm such is a liability.
> >
> >>  Giving life a perspective of eternity and a
> >>framework in which to help and aid others, from my view, makes faith
> >>in the false an OK thing. 
> >
> >It can, yes.  However, Christianity really screwed up with the binary
> >mindset-that of heaven/hell.  According to Christianity, there is
> >eternal life for all.  The only item (which is predetermined) is where
> >you will spend that eternity.  It's one of two locations.
> >
> >Christianity is the epitome of selfishness.  Coveting is a 'sin' in the
> >Christian superstition.  Christians have a hefty motivation to do what
> >they see as "God's Will(tm)" in the hope of a 'reward.'  Said reward is
> >not to be tortured for eternity.
> >
> >Christianity is the epitome of selfishness.  The 'brass ring' of eternal
> >life and the avoidance of eternal torture is a hefty motivation.  Said
> >'prize' is only good for the person it is issued to.
> >
> >An example of selflessness would be a Christian who had the 'prize'
> >giving it to a person in 'Hell' and taking their place.  In the
> >Christian fictional world *that* person is one I would have one hell of
> >a lot of respect for.
> >
> >> If believing in Tiamat the Dragon helps one
> >>to help others and try to make this world a better place - then I say
> >>go ahead and believe.  But if you don't want to believe, that's OK
> >>too.
> >
> >I understand your point, but do want to illustrate something.
> >
> >The Bible indicates making the 'world a better place' is done via
> >genocide.  The Jews are one long-time scapegoat.
> >
> >Muslim fundamentalists (some not all) think making the world a better
> >place comes with utilizing technology against other cultures.  It also
> >thinks making the world a better place comes from terrorizing their own
> >population (taliban).
> >
> >>I just haven't found another philosophy or creed that gives a solid
> >>framework for goodness, kindness, or selflessness. 
> >
> >"We should always be disposed to believe that that which 
> >appears to us to be white is really black, if the
> > hierarchy of the church so decides."
> >  
> >- St. Ignatius Loyola
> >- Exercita spiritualia / 1541
> >
> >> And, to me, it's a
> >>terrible, sad, lonely, and depressing world without such a framework. 
> >>So I chose to believe.
> >
> >Once again, I reiterate such is your perogative.  But I would like to
> >point out the Christian 'framework' does not qualify as good, kind, or
> >selfless.  It qualifies for the direct opposite.
> >
> >Note:  I've tried very very hard not to, metaphorically, step on your
> >toes.  I hope I was successful.
> 
> So much for discussion.
>          
> 
>    
>              Stoney
> "Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
>                and
>           SCAMPERMEISTER!"
> 
> When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
> When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
> When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
> /end humour alert
> 
> alt.atheism military veteran #11
> {so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}