Re: Evidences of God

On 13 Oct 2003 14:43:10 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Maria
Underwood), Message ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in alt.atheism;

>stoney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>> On 21 Aug 2003 08:24:18 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Maria
>> Underwood), Message ID:
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in alt.atheism;

(snip)

>> Christians don't take their own 'Holy Tome' seriously, so why would a
>> person who is not a follower of that superstition?
>> 
>> I apologize for the lengthy post, but it was necessary.  Please hold any
>> reply until Sept 18 as I will be out of town until then.
>> 
>> Be well.
    
>>              Stoney

>Thanks for your reply.  I haven't responded in a timely manner
>because...well, to be frank - I didn't know what to say.

And that's fine.  I wasn't sure if my time spent on that post was
worthwile or not.  I'm glad to see it was.  I'm going to try to make
quick points here in an attempt to avoid writing another 'book.'  I can
say more about specific points upon request.

Let me indicate here that in these posts I'm dealing with the
ramifications and reprecussions of what is being said and illustrating
things from the Christian 'Holy Tome.'

>I know that there is a lot about religion, esp. Christianity, that
>doesn't make sense.  And I also know that much evil has come from
>organized religion.  But I haven't seen a lot of that personally.

I would indicate the doctrine of eternal torture is much evil.  That
doctrine is something Christians are personally exposed to.

>I've seen good come from it.  I've seen addicts use faith in a god to
>overcome addictions.  I've seen those who might have otherwise
>preferred to stay at home - spend money and time helping others.  I've
>seen those who grieved over the departed find peace in the hope of an
>after life.

A few points, if I may.

1) Did those addicts "thank god" for addicting them in the first place?
2) Those folks didn't overcome addiction-they changed drugs.
3)  Did they spend money and time to help people out of empathy and
compassion?  Or did they spend it in the hope of avoiding being tortured
for eternity?
4)  A case can be made that it would have been much better for the world
if the currently appointed President would have stayed on the alcohol
and cocaine.
5)  It is the rare item of evil that does not do some good.  For
example, the train schedules in Nazi Germany.  The efficiency was
awesome.
6)  Fantasies can be comforting as well as terrifying.  For instance,
what 'peace' is the living going to have with the deceased loved one in
Hell?

>From my own life:
1)  I've barely survived several times and the progress I've made has
been through my own efforts and the actions/assistance/encouragement of
other people.  (See Adam Marzack's (sp) site for one example).
2)  I've kicked tobacco via my own efforts at a time when there were no
'aids' to quit.
3)  I've kicked alcohol via my own efforts.  I have a very occasional
beer.
4)  I assist people when I can without expecting a reward.  A 'Thank
you' is enough.
5)  Years ago I had to get medical authorization to join a team
searching for a lost child for two days in nasty terrain and weather.

I've found that, all too often, people sell themselves short.  I found
that out with my cold turkey entry into "The Bay to Breakers" event.
(that story can be found in google archives)

>Maybe there was no Jesus.  But I've seen *faith in Jesus help people
>to overcome obstacles and use his story to try to love, forgive, and
>heal.  Maybe it's all a fairytale, like Paul Bunyon and his Blue Ox or
>like Santa Claus.  But mythology and fairtale, used as religious
>metaphor, have given hope and meaning to millions.  Is that so bad? 

And such has slaughtered and tormented millions.  Such has also
generated anguish in the believer searching for 'guidance.'  Once again,
its a 'two-edged' sword.  Missionaries go out on their missions of
cultural genocide.  I don't call that good.

In my view, if something provides comfort to the individual-that's
great.  The problem occurs when the individual (or group) projects it
'outside.'

>Maybe there wasn't really a "good samaritan" - but doesn't the parable
>teach us a lesson?

So do Aesops Fables.

Except for very few incidents in the Bible (which were stolen from other
cultures/religions) the Bible is the epitome of evil and the lesson that
should be gotten from it is to avoid the tome 'like the plague.'

>  Maybe there wasn't an immaculate conception - and
>the Son of God wasn't really made flesh - but doesn't holding a
>loving, forgiving, gentle, "perfect" role model help teach our
>children values and morals?

It's quite clear you are not speaking of the Christian daemon deity.

Hmmm...values and morals.  What values are taught when the individual is
told over and over again they are not only worthless but that they are
deserving of death for the crime of drawing a first breath?  What values
are taught when they are taught they can't do anything on their own but
must give credit to a fantasy figure?  What values are taught when they
are told over and over again to be grateful for every breath the deity
allows them?

What 'morals' are taught when anything you do (except say something bad
about the holy spook) is forgiven?  What morals are taught when things
are at the dog training level?

What is taught when learning and thinking is denigrated/forbidden and
'faith' is elevated to a 'virtue?'

What morals or values are taught with the denegration of women to the
level of worth less than a cow?  What morals or values are taught with
the encoragement of slavery as well as indicating as long as a beaten
slave lives for more than two days such is legal?  What morals or values
are taught with indicating the selling of rotten meat to those outside
the village is just fine?

There is more, but I think this gets the point across.

>I'll admit that there a lots of flaws, inconsistencies and
>contradictions in many theologies.  But I find peace in the metaphor
>of a Prince of Peace. 

I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

I have come to turn son against father, daughter against mother, and
daughter in law against mother in law.

Those who are not for me are against me.

Those who believe not are already condemned.

To follow me one must hate their mother and father, sister and brother,
and even their own life before they can pick up their cross and follow
me.


"We should always be disposed to believe that that which 
appears to us to be white is really black, if the
 hierarchy of the church so decides."
  
- St. Ignatius Loyola
- Exercita spiritualia / 1541

> Maybe he wasn't real - but trying to believe in
>Him has given me motivation to let go of harsh feelings for those who
>have wronged me.  

Empathy and compassion isn't sufficient on its own?

>Maybe there was no Jesus, but praying to Him and
>saying things such as"Jesus, help me to not be selfish and to reach
>out to others" to myself throughout the day has helped me to smile
>more and to pay more attention to the suffering and concerns of
>others.

Empathy and compassion isn't sufficient on its own?

If not, then I feel sorry for you.

>My attempts at faith have moved me to give $ to organizations such as
>Food For The Hungry. 

/cue Led Zepplins "Stairway to Heaven."

> If I didn't  think there was a purpose to this
>life - but that we were all just animals living out pointless lives
>until we die and fade into oblivion - I might care less about others
>who was suffering and just use my resources to satisfy my own
>hedonistic desires.

Hedonistic desires.  Just animals.  Ouch.  There are those who cannot be
trusted to walk 'off leash.'  More on this in a minute.

Let's see.
I have no belief in deity, but

1)  Am not hedonistic
2)  Do not see people as something to be used and discarded.
3)  Do not steal.
4)  Have no interest in smiting people.
5)  Lend an assist when I can.
6)  Don't get my sense of self-worth or validation based on monster
houses, fancy cars, size of bank account, or what power/control I have
over others.

Al Klein has mentioned a family is living in a house he owns and he does
not charge them rent.

'Purpose.'

Life has no purpose.  Life is.  If you need a 'purpose' then why not
generate it for yourself and change it at need?

Based on the Christian superstition-life has no purpose.  There isn't a
single thing the critter couldn't do much more efficiently with the mere
thought.

Are we animals?  Certainly.  However, some of us can think, consider,
the ramifications and reprecussions of things.  To my mind such
abilities are a hefty asset.  To thiesm such is a liability.

>  Giving life a perspective of eternity and a
>framework in which to help and aid others, from my view, makes faith
>in the false an OK thing. 

It can, yes.  However, Christianity really screwed up with the binary
mindset-that of heaven/hell.  According to Christianity, there is
eternal life for all.  The only item (which is predetermined) is where
you will spend that eternity.  It's one of two locations.

Christianity is the epitome of selfishness.  Coveting is a 'sin' in the
Christian superstition.  Christians have a hefty motivation to do what
they see as "God's Will(tm)" in the hope of a 'reward.'  Said reward is
not to be tortured for eternity.

Christianity is the epitome of selfishness.  The 'brass ring' of eternal
life and the avoidance of eternal torture is a hefty motivation.  Said
'prize' is only good for the person it is issued to.

An example of selflessness would be a Christian who had the 'prize'
giving it to a person in 'Hell' and taking their place.  In the
Christian fictional world *that* person is one I would have one hell of
a lot of respect for.

> If believing in Tiamat the Dragon helps one
>to help others and try to make this world a better place - then I say
>go ahead and believe.  But if you don't want to believe, that's OK
>too.

I understand your point, but do want to illustrate something.

The Bible indicates making the 'world a better place' is done via
genocide.  The Jews are one long-time scapegoat.

Muslim fundamentalists (some not all) think making the world a better
place comes with utilizing technology against other cultures.  It also
thinks making the world a better place comes from terrorizing their own
population (taliban).

>I just haven't found another philosophy or creed that gives a solid
>framework for goodness, kindness, or selflessness. 

"We should always be disposed to believe that that which 
appears to us to be white is really black, if the
 hierarchy of the church so decides."
  
- St. Ignatius Loyola
- Exercita spiritualia / 1541

> And, to me, it's a
>terrible, sad, lonely, and depressing world without such a framework. 
>So I chose to believe.

Once again, I reiterate such is your perogative.  But I would like to
point out the Christian 'framework' does not qualify as good, kind, or
selfless.  It qualifies for the direct opposite.

Note:  I've tried very very hard not to, metaphorically, step on your
toes.  I hope I was successful.

>Crafty


         

   
             Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
               and
          SCAMPERMEISTER!"

When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert

alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}