Re: Purgatory?

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 22:27:32 -0500, Joseph Geloso
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote the following funny stuff in Usenet
News'Froups! :
>
>There is no such thing as one among many. The Church is *The* Church.
>If you say you and I are part of that One Church, I will take you at
>your word. But there is no *my church* vs *your church*. If we are in
>*the* Church, we are One in the Lord.
>
>>
True- THE CHURCH is CHRIST's CHURCH - NOT the Anglican, not the
Baptist, not the Catholic, not the Methodist, Presbyterian, etc..
which is what I've been saying all along.
THE CHURCH is not even on this planet.
At least I have not arrogantly and falsely claimed that the Baptist
Church is the 'THE CHURCH' like you and others have claimed that the
roman religion is 'THE CHURCH'.
As BELIEVERS IN CHRIST, we are united- NOT in denominational
doctrines, practices, or traditions.
Therefore, as fellow BELIEVERS, yes, you and I are in HIS family. BUT-
that does NOR make me a Roman Catholic any more than it makes you a
Baptist.
We are a TOTALLY different faith from rc'ism. TOTALLY.

Your comment :
'And if the Baptist religion were to disappear from the face of the
Earth, God's Church -- the Catholic Church -- would yet remain.'
bespeaks NOTHING BUT ARROGANCE and false pride.
Becasue on the last day, if not before then, your catholic
denomination WILL be torn asunder.
>
>>You're talking through your hat.
>> The roman religion is NOT the Church fouinded by Christ, and it will
>>be overturned.
>
>It will be overturned? When? Hasn't happened in 2000 years, yet.
>
you're not 2000 years old, either. You were not THE CHURCH founded by
our Lord Jesus Christ.
Joe, I have no time, nor the inclination to repeatedly ARGUE with you.
Let's just say I will continue to disagree on your view of 'THE
CHURCH' and leave it at that.

>>>
>>>>LOL! 'properly baptized'???? I most certainly WAS properly baptized,
>>>>by immersion, as our Lord Himself was also baptized, according to the
>>>>Bible.
>>>
>>>Were you baptized "In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the
>>>Holy Spirit," according to the Commmand of Christ? To be baptized with
>>>the Baptism of John is not the same thing, and the Scripture attests
>>>to that fact also.
>>>
>>I most certainly WAS, thank you.
>
>Good. Then you really are a member of Christ's Body, the Church.

I KNEW ALL ALONG that I am a member of HIS CHURCH.  Why do you
question this?

>>And properly by IMMERSION, not merely sprinkling a few drops of water!
>
>Pouring is far more common than sprinkling actually. Immersion is the
>way Our Lord was baptized by John, no doubt. But what is required for
>the validity of the Sacrament is natural water, and the Trinitarian
>Formula. So you were really baptized -- a Sacrament of the New Law,
>which confers grace. You were made the daughter of the Living God, and
>heir to the Kingdom of God. All your previous sins were washed away,
>along with all debt of punishment for sin, in that one instant when
>you were baptized. You were made literally a New Creature in Christ.
>You received the Gift of the Holy Spirit, and there is imprinted upon
>your soul, an indelible mark, the Mark of Christ. You belong to Him.
>
>
I already know I belong to Him. But it still DOES NOT 'make me a Roman
Catholic'.  I AM a Baptist Christian.

>>As for my baptism, I was baptized into CHRIST's Church, not the
>>romanist one.
>
>I am no Romanist. I am Catholic.

You follow a pope; therefore, you ARE roman catholic, or romanist.

> Since there is only one Church, we
>were both baptized into the same One Church. Henceforth no longer say
>my religion was not founded by Christ. My religion is Christianity.

Fine- SO IS MINE.
Henceforth, no longer say the Baptist faith is 'not a church', as I
have been baptized into HIS FAMILY of BELIEVERS.. My religion is
Christianity.

> It was founded by Christ. 
Your DENOMINATION WAS NOT - neither was mine.
HIS CHURCH WAS.

>We each practice Christianity in our different
>ways. But Christ willed for His Church to be One. And God the Father
>always answers the prayers of God the Son. So it stands to reason that
>God's Church is already One, and cannot either be divided. You
>Baptists ought to be worshipping with us, not denouncing our worship
>as false. 
I love this 'you Baptists' bit.

Why would we worship with followers of the romish religion? We are
BAPTIST.
Baptists do NOT kneel before lifeless, useless statues, do not fondle
rosary beads, or kneel before an elected 'pope'. We don't buy or sell
useless 'indulgences' and we don't believe the transubstantiation
fable, nor do we believe in the tall tale of purgatory and Mary
rescuing anyone from there f\if they wore a brown scapular!
So WHY in the world do you imagine Baptist should be worshiping with
your denomination? If we did, that would make us Roman Catholics. We
ARE NOT RC's. We ARE Baptist Christians.

>>>Do you believe in One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church?
>>>
>>No.
>
>>The Roman Catholic religion is not the one and only, and it's obvious
>>from studying its history, it's FAR FROM holy....
>>
>>remainder of coercive comments ignored.
>
>Look, it is easy for us to be nice to each other. We both love God.
>But here we are on our respective religion newsgroups. I did not go
>out looking for you and you did not go out looking for me. But we both
>got interested in this thread about Purgatory. Now Purgatory is known
>to both of us as Catholic Doctrine. The first post I see from you on
>this thread was a series of five sentences
>
>Since I did not address these then, I will do so now.
>
>>The place roman catholics call 'purgatory' does not exist.
>
>That is a bare assertion. Your thesis, if you will.
>
Has long ago been posted..... there is NO mention of any such place in
the Bible. I believe the BIBLE ..... not mere heresay.

>>The BIBLE does NOT support it either.
>
>It would have been more proper for you to simply say, "The Bible does
>not support it." That would be you bringing forth evidence in support
>of your thesis. Adding the word "either" implies your thesis as a
>priori, which is not valid for the sake of argument unless you are in
>fact an authority.
>
I said nothing about 'being an authority' either....

>>The Bible clearly states that it is appointed for man to die once,
>>then face judgement.
>
>That is true.
>
>>No mention of purgy there.
>
>That is also true.
>
So--- your argument is futile, correct?

>>The doctrine of 'purgatory' is a man-made doctrine, just as the fable
>>they call 'transubstantiation' is.
>
>If that is the conclusion, it does not follow from the premises. You
>were going along fine until you got to here. There is something
>missing in your argument. The fact that one verse of the Bible does
>not mention Purgatory does not lead to the conclusion that the
>doctrine is man-made. And the stab about transsubstantiation can
>safely be discarded, as that is a different subject altogether.
>
It was no 'stab' - it's FACT. Transubby was brought into the game by
pope 'innocent' IIIrd - who was FAR FROM innocent in his life.
Many innocent people were tortured and burned to death at the stake
for refusing to believe his lie.

>But you and I are in agreement as to certain facts. One that the Bible
>is an authority, in the sense that you appealed to authority in this
>sentence:
>>The BIBLE does NOT support it either.
>The only flaw here is, as pointed out, you are presenting it as if you
>have two authorities that are in agreement, both you AND the Bible not
>supporting the doctrine of Purgatory. You are not an authority. 

Like I SAID - I never claimed I was any 'authority'.
But I DO KNOW the Bible, thank you.

>But the Bible is an authority that we both recognize. So that is progress
>towards understanding each other.
>
I have understood you pretty well all along, Joe. The problem is, you
are still trying. covertly, yes, but still TRYING to convince me that
I am supposedly a roman catholic when I AM NOT.
That means you are still prosyletizing in this BAPTIST faith's
newsgroup.
You are trying to use mind control tactics in desperately trying to
make me think I'm really a roman catholic when I KNOW I am not.
Please refrain from using such tactics with me, sir. Others have tried
brainwashing me, and I'm a tough one to try that crap with. I don't
brainwash well, believe me.

>It is a point worth making, that you are not an authority that anyone
>should have to recognize. Neither am I such an authority. 

LIKE I SAID, I never, ever have claimed to BE an authority. WHEN will
you memorize this?

>We are each
>just human beings, trying to sort things out for ourselves in ways
>that make sense to us each individually. Part of my understanding of
>God's Church says that there ought to be, there has to be, some way
>that will make sense to us both, together, in God's Church. So that is
>what I am striving for, with you. Are you game?

Game? You're making this into a bet of some sort?
I don't play games when it comes to Christianity.

As for discussing POV's, I'm willing to discuss many things. I am NOT
willing to tolerate being told I am 'rc' when I am NOT.
Leave roman catholicism out of our discussions, and I'll be happy.

--


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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~JESUS is the ROCK!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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