Re: Purgatory?

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 04:49:11 -0800, John W
<john_weatherly47<no>@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>>  And when you decide you are up to some TRUTH, I'll show you what a
>>>crock "purgatory" is.
>>
>>As I said in another post, give it a go. I will read what you come up
>>with.
>
>Sorry to have missed this. For some reason seems everybody in here
>wants a piece of me. Perhaps that's a good thing. 
>
>At any rate,
>
>
>There are three stories that resolve the question of "purgatory", and
>it does not exist.
>
>The thief was told he'd be in Heaven that very day. If he did not go
>to Heaven that very day, God lied.

It has been pointed out to you that the thief was going to Paradise,
not Heaven. We know that Our Lord Himself did not acsend into Heaven
until forty days after the Resurrection, so it would not stand to
reason that He said He would be there that day. After He died, and
before the Resurrection more than one full day (24 hours) passed.
During that time, He went to preach to the spirits in prison. He did
not go to Heaven directly after He died, rather He "decsended into
Hell." This is not the unquenchable fire of the impenitent, but
rather, the "bosom of Abraham," or the "Limbo of the Fathers," that
place where the souls of the Faithful went who looked forward to the
coming of Messiah

Saint Thomas Aquinas said,

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/405204.htm

Reply to Objection 3. Our Lord's expression is not to be understood of
the earthly corporeal paradise, but of a spiritual one, in which all
are said to be who enjoy the Divine glory. Accordingly, the thief
descended locally into hell with Christ, because it was said to him:
"This day thou shalt be with Me in paradise"; still as to reward he
was in paradise, because he enjoyed Christ's Godhead just as the other
saints did.

>end quote

In any case -- and we are getting to this -- the "good thief" made a
perfect Act of Penitence while he was hanging on his cross, and a
perfect Act of Penitence (Contrition)  has the same effect as an
indulgence, that is, it remits part or all of the temporal punishment
due for sin. Saint Thomas Aquinas, again:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/500502.htm

The affections of the heart are more acceptable to God than external
acts. Now man is absolved from both punishment and guilt by means of
external actions; and therefore he is also by means of the heart's
affections, such as contrition is.

Further, we have an example of this in the thief, to whom it was said
(Lk. 23:43): "This day shalt thou be with Me in paradise," on account
of his one act of repentance. 

>end quote

Please note that I submit Saint Thomas Aquinas not as authority, but
as reason. God said, "Let us reason together..."


>Paul said that he'd suffered so much he'd "choose to leave us and be
>with God." That was IMMEDIATE. He didn't mention "going to purgatory
>and waiting." If Paul wouldn't know, who would? I apologize for being
>unable to find the reference at this time, but I will find it and post
>it if you don't find it in the interim.

It's O.K., I don't need to see it. I believe you. Saint Paul is one of
God's Canonized Saints. One of the things that sets the Saints apart
is the fact of their suffering which, coupled with their great love
for God, abundantly repairs for all their own sins, and then some. The
"and then some" is known as Intercessory Power, which God's Saints
possess with Him. Thus the Saints repaired not only for their own sins
but also made additional satisfaction that could be applied to the
sins of others; thus does Saint Paul say he rejoices to make up in his
own body for what lacks in the sufferings of Christ. Canonized Saints
do not pass through the fire of Purgatory at all, but instead go
directly to Heaven, because they are perfect at the moment of their
own death.


>Finally,
>When Lazarus, the poor man, died, he went to heaven IMMEDIATELY. He
>looked over and saw the rich man in hell.
>
>For those who think Lazarus is a fable, even if that were true (it's
>not), why would Jesus tell the story and include details that were
>untrue?

Lazarus went to the Bosom of Abraham, which is Paradise, same as the
Good Thief.

>
>The Bible says that when we die, we go immediately into the presence
>of God.

Sorry, no it doesn't. Some do. But not all, necessarily. Saint Paul
did, and Saint Paul knew he would, because he had been given that
Understanding from God.

>
>
>Oh!  A 4th!  The Mt of Transfiguration proves there's no purgatory.
>
>Think about that one.

How does that relate? Are you saying that because Moses and Elijah
were/are alive, that there is no Purgatory? I don't see the
connection.