Re: Enforced Secularism to Trump Religious Freedoms in France

>!
>> >Christians did that, but think they were wrong and don't do that
>> >anymore.
<snip>
>
>> Most Muslims think it wrong and *don't* do it. 
>They are "modern" muslim :-)

And what exactly are the Christians who don't do this anymore? 

> but what should they answer to other
>muslims that would do it ? 

The same thing Christians say to those who share this kind of mentality. 

>
>> And there are other Hadiths which suggest she must have been around 18. 
>
>1) which one please ?

Most of the hadiths say she was nine when she was betrothed and the marriage
was consumated a few years later. All 
Virtually all the hadiths attest that the  was not consumated until she reached
puperty, and it is unlike that would have happened at nine years of age back
then. But there are others which suggest she was between t16-19. These are
based on the accounts Aisha gives of her life back in Mecca when her parents
became Muslim. By that chronology she would have had to have been in her late
teens. In any case here are some of the numerous theories about her age and the
evidence which supports them: 

She was thirteen: 

It is said that Muhammad was 40 years of age when he became prophet.
Hazrat Fatima was born of Hazrat Khadija, when Quraish were building Ka'ba; and
this happened five years before Muhammad's prophethood. (Tabaqaat Ibn-e-Saad
vol 8, p. 11) 
[i.e. when Muhammad was 35 years old.]
Hazrat Fatima was five years older than Hazrat Aisha. (Asad-ul-Ghaba vol. 4, p.
377)
[i.e. Aisha was born when Muhammad was 40 years of age.]
Nikah (not marriage) of Aisha was contracted in Shawwal of 10th Nabwi year 10
years after the first Revelation. (Tabaqaat Ibn-e-Saad vol. 8, p. 40) 
[i.e. when Aisha was ten (10) years old; and marriage was consumed three (3)
years later.]

She was sixteen: 

The prophet died in the sixty fifth (65) year of his life (Tabari vol. 1, p.
599)
Hisham said, "I have been informed that Aisha remained with Prophet for nine
(9) years. (i.e. till his death).." (Bukhari vol. 7. Book 62, No. 65) 
[i.e. Muhammad's year of marriage with Aisha: 65 - 9 = 56. Year of Aisha's
birth is fortieth 40th of Muhammad age.]

She was 17: 

Aisha was born in the fortieth (40th) year of Muhammad's age. (Proved in first
part)
Muhammad was forty (40) years of age when he received his first revelation.
"..Ibn-e-Abbas said .. in Makkah revelation upon him (Muhammad) kept coming for
fifteen (15) or more years." while the same Ibn-e-Abbas has been quoted to
mention Thirteen(13) years of revelation in Makkah and usually this has been
accepted by majority. (Tabqaat Ibn-e-Saad vol.1, p.333-334 & ,Tabari vol.1 part
3 )
Therefore, Hazrat Aisha should be between 13-15 years of age at the time of
Hijrah (migration). 


Family of Abu-Bakr (including Aisha) migrated much after Muhammad.
In Medina Aisha got fever and her hair fell, later her hair grew and then she
got married to Muhammad. (Bukhari vol. 5, Book 58 No. 234) i.e. it took some
time to marry after the migration.
"It is absolutely strange to say that her (Aisha) departure (consummation) took
place after seven months of migration (as is written in some narrations). This
kind of narration is very weak. Her departure (to Muhammad) took place after
the return from Badr in Shawwal Two Hijrah [i.e 2 A.H.] (Aynee - the expounder
of Bukhari vol 8, p. 96)
The Apostle of Allah married Aisha eighteen months after the Hijrah. (Al-Istiab
vol. 2, p. 744)

She was 18: 

Author of Mishkaat, Sheikh Wali-ud-din abi-Abdullah Muhammad, in his book
"Ikmaal fi Asmaa- ur-Rijaal": 

Hazrat Asma, daughter of Abu Bakr (sister of Aisha) was ten (10) years older
than Hazrat Aisha.
Hazrat Asma died in 73 A.H. when she was hundred (100) years of age. 
i.e. Hazrat Asma was 100 - 73 = 27 years old at the time of migration, and
Hazrat Aisha was 27 - 10 = 17 years of age at the same time; for she was 10
years younger. 

Since Aisha got married in 2 A.H. Therefore, age of hazrat Aisha was nineteen
(17 + 2 = 19) at the time of marriage with Muhammad (saw). 

This is also supported by these: 

On an inquiry by Hisham, Kalbi said, she (Fatima) was 35 years (at death).
(Istiaab vol 6, p.752)
Hazrat Fatima died in 11 A.H.

i.e. At the time of Hijrah Hazrat Fatima was 35 - 11 = 24 years old, and Hazrat
Aisha being 5 years younger, would have been nineteen 24 - 5 = 19 years of age.

 >
>> What percentage of the Muslim countries in the world allow ten year olds to
>get
>> married? Don't name countries. Give me the percentage. 
>
>Do such studies about percentage exist ? 

They could easily be compiled. All you have to do is make a list of Muslim
countries and find out what the legal marriage age is in each. 
>
>But if you ask to ulamas about the age of wedding in islam, their
>answer will be based on the ayesha's marriage : 6 and 9. Final point !

Did you consult with them? What I find when I google this is just the opposite!

If you check out the various websites you will see that it is virtually always
the Christians, not the 'ulama who are arguing that she was this young. And one
can find websites even for ayatullah's on the internet, complete with their
farmans. Obviously they are not interested in using this as justification for
child marriages. 

>Hadith says : "Marry a wife who loves you and gives children to you,
>because I'll be proud of your multitude in the Day of Jugement." (Abû
>Dâûd, n° 2050, An-Nassay, n° 3227).

And Baha'u'llah says 'Marry O people so that you may raise up one who will make
mention of Me." We don't need a 'multitude ' anymore but the principle that
marriage is for procreation remains. But it isn't considered an obligation. 

>Advantage to not be rape ? 

More often not to be harrassed and propositioned. I was careful of my own dress
in India for the same reason. 

>By the education, the protection must
>be IN the men's head and not ON the women's head...

That's wonderful. But women are entitled to whatever protection *they* feel
they need. 

>
>The french government acts against this discriminative state of mind :
>"mothers" veiled, and "whores" unveiled.

By discriminating against the women rather than the men once again? Thanks a
lot!

>She did not wear Hijab !!!

She does indeed. 

>Hijab hide hairs, ears, neck, throat, shoulders and breast... only the
>face can be seen.

Not always. Just the ones you showed. Muslims make jokes about Benazir Bhutto
hijab and call it the 'yo yo hijab' because her scarf keeps falling down and
has to be constantly pulled back. 

>Persecution is a too "big" word for what happens in France...

Okay, we will just call it a deprivation of their fundamental human rights. 

>
>Never mind how they dress, if they acknowledge that all the human
>being are equal in right and dignity... 

Fine. Then focus on that issue and leave their dress alone. 

>but they don't want, because
>that is in opposition with sharia !

I don't know whether the girls in question acknowledge equality of rights or
not but it is obvious to me that the French do not! 

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