Re: Bad idea: Punishing false rape accusers

"Sir Jessy of Anti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
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>
> "MMET572" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > "Sir Jessy of Anti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > "Rauni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 05:16:39 GMT, "MMET572" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >"Magic Nose Goblin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dee Fish out of Korea) wrote in message
> > > > >news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Magic Nose Goblin) wrote in message
> > > > >news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > >> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kate Orman) wrote in message
> > > > >news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > >> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rich) wrote in message
> > > > >news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > >> > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kate Orman) wrote in message
> > > > >news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > > > > If it's not against the law to make a false report to
the
> > > > >police, then
> > > > >> > > > > > how are these charges being laid?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > > > When such charges are laid, they are for crimes against
the
> > > state
> > > > >> > > > > (just ask Laurie). Specifically things like perjury, or
in
> > the
> > > > >> > > > > UK either 'wasting police time' or 'perverting the course
> of
> > > > >justice'.
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > > The accused man is not in any way a part of the
> proceedings,
> > > much
> > > > >> > > > > less as the victim of a crime, and the charges are for a
> > > > >misdemeanor,
> > > > >> > > > > not a felony.
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > I see what you (and Daran) are getting at - false
> > *accusations*,
> > > in
> > > > >> > > > which a specific person is maliciously identified as the
> > > > >perpetrator,
> > > > >> > > > as opposed to false *allegations*, in which a specific
> > > perpetrator
> > > > >may
> > > > >> > > > or may not be identified (as in the cases posted). It's an
> > > extremely
> > > > >> > > > important distinction, and I ought to have spotted it
myself.
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > I suspect whether making a false report is a misdemeanour
or
> a
> > > > >felony
> > > > >> > > > varies, perhaps from state to state; the liars in Kanin's
> study
> > > were
> > > > >> > > > told they would be charged with a felony. It'd be
interesting
> > to
> > > > >learn
> > > > >> > > > whether maliciously accusing someone of (for example) theft
> > > attracts
> > > > >> > > > criminal charges.
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > While I'm far from an expert on law, I'd have little
> objection
> > to
> > > a
> > > > >> > > > specific crime of false accusation, as long as rape was not
> the
> > > only
> > > > >> > > > crime it applied to. Not only is a false accusation a
vicious
> > > > >> > > > injustice, but it hands woman-haters and rapists more
> > ammunition
> > > > >> > > > for their quest to smear all rape victims as "lying
bitches".
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > However, I've seen no good evidence that false reports are
a
> > > large
> > > > >> > > > proportion of reports, and false accusations are only a
> > > proportion
> > > > >> > > > of false reports. When women do lie, it's not usually out
of
> > > malice:
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > According to a FEMALE spokeswoman for the NYC DA's office,
> > > > >> > > 40% of their rape accusations are subsequently recanted.
> > > > >> > > and
> > > > >> > > 40% of their rape accusations are DISPROVEN upon
investigation.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > No mention was made of how many recantings take place after
> > > > >> > > the police disprove the accusation.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > And of course, there will always be the false accusation
which
> > > > >> > > is neither recanted, nor disproven...which means there are
EVEN
> > > > >> > > MORE false accusations then what these figures show.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > So, at least in NYC, the DA's statistics show that AT LEAST
> > > > >> > > 40% to 80% of all rape accusations are false False FALSE!
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Not necessarily. Rape accusations may be recanted, but still
> arise
> > > > >> > from a bona-fide rape.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> If the police have any evidence that the rape DID take place,
then
> > > > >> the DA's will prosecute despite her, and put her on the stand as
a
> > > > >> hostile witness.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > The same as domestic violence accusations may
> > > > >> > be recanted, but still arise from a real situation of abuse.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Let's not forget that over 50% of domestic abuse is committed by
> > women.
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >Do tell. And are the 50% of these "abuse victims" who happen to be
> male
> > > > >hospitalized or embalmed in the same proportions as the 50% who
> happen
> > to
> > > be
> > > > >women?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Typical soc.men twisting of the facts, data collected from the
> > > > National Crime Victimization Survey (Bureau of Justice Statistics)
> > > > consistently find that no matter what the rate of violence or who
> > > > initiates the violence, women are 7 to 10 times more likely to be
> > > > injured in acts of intimate violence than are men.
> > >
> > > Still peddling the same ol' shtick here, eh Rauni?
> > >
> > > Men are bigger and stronger than women for the most part.  It stands
to
> > > reason
> > > when you start a fight with a Mac truck, you lose, and lose badly.
I've
> > > asked you
> > > before to give us some insight into what this might mean other than
the
> > > obvious.
> > > But no, you just keep throwing this out there - kind of like the
soc.men
> > you
> > > accuse of doing
> > > the exact same thing.  Women are hurt more!  This proves everything!
> Well
> > > in fact it
> > > does little to prove who initiated what, and it simply reaffirms the
> > > obvious:  most men are physically
> > > stronger than most women.
> > >
> >
> > Okay - using your analogy.
> >
> > You have a Mac truck and  a subcompact. Which would you think would be
> more
> > risky and potentially damaging to use if you planned to weave in and out
> of
> > traffic?
> >
> > Rules of the road (as in all things) apply equally, but practical
> allowance
> > is made for capability (ya don't see too many Coopers at weigh in
> stations -
> > even though highway weight codes technically apply to them as well).
>
> No, but occationally I see one of the fly in front of a Mac, slam on the
> brakes, and nearly cause an
> accident.  You see, the Mac truck being built as it is - can't stop on a
> dime.
>
> >
> > If you're driving a Mac, its a given that you're expected to keep that
> fact
> > in mind. If you're capable of putting another person in the hospital
with
> > your greater upper body strength keep that in mind as well.
>
> I see your point, but like I said, there are many variables to consider.
> My point was that Rauni's trotting out of that statistic does little to
show
> the interpersonal
> dynamics that exist in violent relationships, or the rate of DV comitted
> and/or initiated by both men and women.
> On top of this, men are socially conditioned to 'never hit a woman',
whereas
> the reverse does not apply.

That is a pretty sweeping statement. I would say that a good many cultures
in the world, even in the western world, have the opposite case - that
hitting a woman is acceptable or even necessary.

Not so long ago there were even rules encoded that sanctioned such
behaviour. The Napoleonic code actually gave rules for proper beating of
wives.

> Add to this the hundreds of empirical studies that have shown violence to
be
> intiated at relatively equal
> rates in intimate relationships, and you have a different picture than
what
> Rauni would like to present.

Depends how you define violence. I have two very good friends who,
unfortunately, have very different personalities. He clams up when
confronted on personal matters, she screams. When she gets especially
frustrated she throws things (not at him) and breaks things.

He OTOH, is passive agressive and doesn't respond at all. One time she got
especially frustrated at his unwillingness to discuss an issue and she
grabbed him by the upper arm. He took her hand, twisted it, and gave her a
severe bruise and twisted wrist.

Who initiated violence? Debateable. Who lost control? Debateable again. But
who was damaged is NOT debateable.
>
> For instance, were the wounds inflicted in self-defense?   If a woman
> punches a man in the face, and he strikes her back,
> as a generalization - who do you think will be hurt more?  Are these
violent
> acts somehow 'less' or 'more' than equal to one another?
>

Reasonable force to restrain, but what you're talking about isn't restraint
but retaliation.

> You raise an interesting question though.  If men are required to restrain
> themselves in violent altercations with women,
> than what are women doing in the military?

Because the military is all about measured and directed use of force and
violence. I would put it to you that that being the case, some women would
be actually overqualified for military service.

I can assure you the enemy makes
> no such fru-fru distinctions.  This is an example of claiming victim
status
> where suitable, and equality when convienent.
>
> I'm not a violent person, so given pretty much any amount of agrivation,
> it would still take something akin to flight or fight for me to even use
> violence in self-defense.    That makes
> this topic somewhat more philosphical for me, i.e. I have no vested
> interest.
> Personally, I think to _some_ degree these types of people seek each other

I would have to say that you have a point there.

> out.  Not in every case, or maybe
> not even in the majority of cases, but nevertheless certainly in some
cases
> there is a fucked up dynamic going on here.
>
>

I've known or heard of enough repeat victims to think that there must be a
link to self esteem or personality issues that drives these women to choose
teh wrong men.

I also know that abusers escalate.

DFooK

>
> >
> > DFooK
> > > >
> > > > "The pure and simple truth is rarely pure
> > > >  and never simple." -- Oscar Wilde
> > >
> > > BTW:  Why don't you actually READ your .sig.  Maybe then we wouldn't
be
> > > having this conversation.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>