Re: Bad idea: Punishing false rape accusers

"MMET572" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
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>
> "Sir Jessy of Anti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > "Rauni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 05:16:39 GMT, "MMET572" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >"Magic Nose Goblin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dee Fish out of Korea) wrote in message
> > > >news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Magic Nose Goblin) wrote in message
> > > >news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > >> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kate Orman) wrote in message
> > > >news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > >> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rich) wrote in message
> > > >news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > >> > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kate Orman) wrote in message
> > > >news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > > > > If it's not against the law to make a false report to the
> > > >police, then
> > > >> > > > > > how are these charges being laid?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > > > When such charges are laid, they are for crimes against the
> > state
> > > >> > > > > (just ask Laurie). Specifically things like perjury, or in
> the
> > > >> > > > > UK either 'wasting police time' or 'perverting the course
of
> > > >justice'.
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > The accused man is not in any way a part of the
proceedings,
> > much
> > > >> > > > > less as the victim of a crime, and the charges are for a
> > > >misdemeanor,
> > > >> > > > > not a felony.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > I see what you (and Daran) are getting at - false
> *accusations*,
> > in
> > > >> > > > which a specific person is maliciously identified as the
> > > >perpetrator,
> > > >> > > > as opposed to false *allegations*, in which a specific
> > perpetrator
> > > >may
> > > >> > > > or may not be identified (as in the cases posted). It's an
> > extremely
> > > >> > > > important distinction, and I ought to have spotted it myself.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > I suspect whether making a false report is a misdemeanour or
a
> > > >felony
> > > >> > > > varies, perhaps from state to state; the liars in Kanin's
study
> > were
> > > >> > > > told they would be charged with a felony. It'd be interesting
> to
> > > >learn
> > > >> > > > whether maliciously accusing someone of (for example) theft
> > attracts
> > > >> > > > criminal charges.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > While I'm far from an expert on law, I'd have little
objection
> to
> > a
> > > >> > > > specific crime of false accusation, as long as rape was not
the
> > only
> > > >> > > > crime it applied to. Not only is a false accusation a vicious
> > > >> > > > injustice, but it hands woman-haters and rapists more
> ammunition
> > > >> > > > for their quest to smear all rape victims as "lying bitches".
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > However, I've seen no good evidence that false reports are a
> > large
> > > >> > > > proportion of reports, and false accusations are only a
> > proportion
> > > >> > > > of false reports. When women do lie, it's not usually out of
> > malice:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > According to a FEMALE spokeswoman for the NYC DA's office,
> > > >> > > 40% of their rape accusations are subsequently recanted.
> > > >> > > and
> > > >> > > 40% of their rape accusations are DISPROVEN upon investigation.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > No mention was made of how many recantings take place after
> > > >> > > the police disprove the accusation.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > And of course, there will always be the false accusation which
> > > >> > > is neither recanted, nor disproven...which means there are EVEN
> > > >> > > MORE false accusations then what these figures show.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > So, at least in NYC, the DA's statistics show that AT LEAST
> > > >> > > 40% to 80% of all rape accusations are false False FALSE!
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Not necessarily. Rape accusations may be recanted, but still
arise
> > > >> > from a bona-fide rape.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> If the police have any evidence that the rape DID take place, then
> > > >> the DA's will prosecute despite her, and put her on the stand as a
> > > >> hostile witness.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> > The same as domestic violence accusations may
> > > >> > be recanted, but still arise from a real situation of abuse.
> > > >>
> > > >> Let's not forget that over 50% of domestic abuse is committed by
> women.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >Do tell. And are the 50% of these "abuse victims" who happen to be
male
> > > >hospitalized or embalmed in the same proportions as the 50% who
happen
> to
> > be
> > > >women?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Typical soc.men twisting of the facts, data collected from the
> > > National Crime Victimization Survey (Bureau of Justice Statistics)
> > > consistently find that no matter what the rate of violence or who
> > > initiates the violence, women are 7 to 10 times more likely to be
> > > injured in acts of intimate violence than are men.
> >
> > Still peddling the same ol' shtick here, eh Rauni?
> >
> > Men are bigger and stronger than women for the most part.  It stands to
> > reason
> > when you start a fight with a Mac truck, you lose, and lose badly.  I've
> > asked you
> > before to give us some insight into what this might mean other than the
> > obvious.
> > But no, you just keep throwing this out there - kind of like the soc.men
> you
> > accuse of doing
> > the exact same thing.  Women are hurt more!  This proves everything!
Well
> > in fact it
> > does little to prove who initiated what, and it simply reaffirms the
> > obvious:  most men are physically
> > stronger than most women.
> >
>
> Okay - using your analogy.
>
> You have a Mac truck and  a subcompact. Which would you think would be
more
> risky and potentially damaging to use if you planned to weave in and out
of
> traffic?
>
> Rules of the road (as in all things) apply equally, but practical
allowance
> is made for capability (ya don't see too many Coopers at weigh in
stations -
> even though highway weight codes technically apply to them as well).

No, but occationally I see one of the fly in front of a Mac, slam on the
brakes, and nearly cause an
accident.  You see, the Mac truck being built as it is - can't stop on a
dime.

>
> If you're driving a Mac, its a given that you're expected to keep that
fact
> in mind. If you're capable of putting another person in the hospital with
> your greater upper body strength keep that in mind as well.

I see your point, but like I said, there are many variables to consider.
My point was that Rauni's trotting out of that statistic does little to show
the interpersonal
dynamics that exist in violent relationships, or the rate of DV comitted
and/or initiated by both men and women.
On top of this, men are socially conditioned to 'never hit a woman', whereas
the reverse does not apply.
Add to this the hundreds of empirical studies that have shown violence to be
intiated at relatively equal
rates in intimate relationships, and you have a different picture than what
Rauni would like to present.

For instance, were the wounds inflicted in self-defense?   If a woman
punches a man in the face, and he strikes her back,
as a generalization - who do you think will be hurt more?  Are these violent
acts somehow 'less' or 'more' than equal to one another?

You raise an interesting question though.  If men are required to restrain
themselves in violent altercations with women,
than what are women doing in the military?  I can assure you the enemy makes
no such fru-fru distinctions.  This is an example of claiming victim status
where suitable, and equality when convienent.

I'm not a violent person, so given pretty much any amount of agrivation,
it would still take something akin to flight or fight for me to even use
violence in self-defense.    That makes
this topic somewhat more philosphical for me, i.e. I have no vested
interest.
Personally, I think to _some_ degree these types of people seek each other
out.  Not in every case, or maybe
not even in the majority of cases, but nevertheless certainly in some cases
there is a fucked up dynamic going on here.



>
> DFooK
> > >
> > > "The pure and simple truth is rarely pure
> > >  and never simple." -- Oscar Wilde
> >
> > BTW:  Why don't you actually READ your .sig.  Maybe then we wouldn't be
> > having this conversation.
> >
> >
> >
>
>