Re: Frequent false reports: where's the evidence? (was: Re: Rape Education Story #60

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kate Orman) wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Waldo Weaver) wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kate Orman) wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > 
> > > To date I have seen no good evidence that fake reports (let alone 
> > > fake accusations, trials, or convictions) are an overwhelming problem 
> > > and that victims should therefore be treated with automatic suspicion. 
> > 
> >  Your logic goes like this: "No one has proved women lie frequently
> > about rape. Therefore, they don't. "
> 
> My logic goes like this: "There is no evidence that a large proportion 
> of rape reports are false.

But there is. Kanin found 41% of the rape accusations were recanted
(and he asked why as that was what he was studying).

The claim that there is no evidence is simply false.

The fact is that you simply reject all evidence of a high incidence of
false rape reports. Innocent men in prison is not a feminist problem
now, is it Kate?

> Therefore, there is no reason to believe
> that a large proportion of rape reports are false." (Apologies to 
> Bertrand Russell. :-)

I don't think anything can penetrate your denial, it's not that you
could care less, rather it looks like you consider a high rate of 
false rape reports looks bad about women, and you object to the very
idea of any negative female images.
 
> >  How suspicious we are of alleged victims is a question to be resolved
> > *after* we know better how frequently women lie about rape.
> 
> Since there's no reason to assume that women are habitual liars,

I know this is pointless since you are immune to evidence...

  --------------------------------------------------------------
  http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,170-744907,00.html

  Women exposed as the bigger liars about sex
  By Mark Henderson, Science Correspondent

  WOMEN are more likely than men to lie about their sex lives, 
  according to a new study. They are so concerned about society's
  dim view of female promiscuity that they routinely claim to 
  have slept with fewer partners than in reality.

  Men are more honest, accurately reporting their true number of
  partners despite social pressure to look like a Don Juan.

  The findings offer the best explanation yet for a paradox that has
  baffled psychologists since sex surveys began in the 1960s.
  Heterosexual men routinely report they have slept with more partners
  than do women: British men, for example, claim an average of thirteen
  partners over their lifetimes, compared with nine for women.

  These figures, however, are statistically impossible. Unless hundreds
  of thousands of British men are having sex with foreign women - which
  is most unlikely given similar findings elsewhere - the average for
  both genders should be about the same.

  Scientists have resolved this by assuming that both sexes must be
  lying, with men exaggerating and women underreporting their
  experience. The new study, however, shows only the latter to be true.

  Women, it found, are serial liars when it comes to sex. Not only do
  they "forget" about certain partners: they also add years to the age
  at which they lost their virginity, and refuse to tell the truth about
  masturbating or using pornography.

  The results, which are published in the Journal of Sex Research,
  suggest that the sexual proclivities of men and women are in fact much
  closer than traditional research has indicated.

  "Women are so sensitive about being labelled ?sluts' or ?whores' that
  they are very reluctant to be honest about their sexual behaviour,
  even in supposedly anonymous surveys," said Terri Fisher, who led the
  study at Ohio State University.

  "You would assume that when a heterosexual man has sex, a woman is
  having sex at the same time, but the statistics always suggest
  otherwise. That can't be true. We thought males would be overinflating
  their experience while females underreport it, but that's not what we
  found."

  In the study, Dr Fisher and Michele Alexander, of the University of
  Maine, asked 96 men and 105 women, all of whom were heterosexual
  students between the ages of 18 and 25, to answer questions about
  their sex lives under three different conditions.

  One group was left alone in a room and told their answers would be
  completely anonymous. A second group filled in the same questionnaire,
  but were told that a researcher was watching and could match their
  face to their form.

  With the final group, the scientists attached electrodes to the
  volunteers' necks, forearms and hands, and told them they were being
  wired to a lie detector test.

  The women in the three groups responded very differently according to
  the testing conditions.

  Those who thought they were being watched gave an average of 2.6
  partners, compared with 3.4 in the anonymous group.

  Those who thought they were attached to a lie detector were still more
  forthcoming, giving an average of 4.4 partners.

  There was no such spread among the men. Those on the dummy polygraph
  claimed 4.0 partners, compared with 3.7 for the other groups - a
  difference that is not statistically significant.
 
No reason you say? What would you consider reason Kate?

--------------------
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_1513000/1513729.stm

  BBC NEWS ONLINE
  Wednesday, 29 August, 2001, 00:01 GMT 01:01 UK
  Women admit to regular lies


  Nearly one in four British women would try to conceive
  without their partner's consent if they wanted a baby,
  research suggests. 

  A survey by women's magazine That's Life!, found that
  many women are prepared to lie about almost any
  aspect of their life. 

  The Scruples and Lies survey was based on
  interviews with 5,000 women. It found that 94%
  confessed to telling fibs, with 48% lying on a daily
  basis. 

  The vast majority (84%) said they could lie with a clear
  conscience - many said deceit was justified as a way
  of sparing other people's feelings. 

  Susan Quilliam, psychologist and That's Life! agony
  aunt, said: "Women's lives are changing very fast and
  the fact they lie is an indication they're under  
  pressure at work, at home and in their relationships, so
  sometimes they feel they have to bend the truth just in
  order to survive. 

  "However, it greatly saddens me that 24% of women
  would have a baby without their partner's consent. The
  decision to have a baby is a very serious one and it's
  just not on to play Russian roulette with a baby's   
  life." 

  Less forgiving 

  The survey also found that many women would be
  prepared to put up with wayward behaviour from their partner. 

  Eight out 10 would be prepared to stay with a man
  who lost interest in sex completely, while 59% would
  not leave a man even if he robbed a bank. 

  More than half (52%) could excuse a man whispering
  the name of a former girlfriend during sex. 

  However, 51% of women would not tolerate bad
  personal hygiene. 

  British women also expect fidelity from their men. Six
  out of 10 would dump their partner if he had a one-night
  stand, and 82% would not tolerate their partner having
  a homosexual relationship. 

  A threesome with their husband and another
  woman was a no-no for 80% of women. 

  A threesome with another man would be refused by 75%. 

  However, 31% of women said they would be prepared to have sex 
  on a plane with a sexy stranger, and a similar number said they
  could be tempted by a handsome neighbour. 

  One in three women said they would have no problems
  with going to bed with a close male friend while they
  were between relationships. 

  Money 

  The survey also showed money was an area about
  which British women were not inclined to have scruples. 

  Seven out of 10 women would instantly change their
  minds about leaving a boring man if he hit the lottery
  jackpot. 

  More than half (51%) would take the money if offered
  &#65533;10,000 to share their secrets with the world after
  bedding a famous footballer. 

  And 40% would accept &#65533;50,000 for their partner to
  sleep with another woman. 

  But 71% would draw the line at ripping off a pensioner.

  However, while British women are prepared to kiss and
  tell, work as escorts and make love with a complete
  stranger, 83% deride glamour model Jordan as a "sad
  victim of male fantasies". 

> there's no reason for doctors, police, lawyers, judges, juries, or 
> the media to behave as though they are.

I disagree.

> There's no basis for the 
> untoward suspicion that has helped so many rapists continue their 
> careers.

So you see rape as a career? How much does it pay?

> Nor is there a good reason for large efforts to convince 
> folks that rape victims can't be trusted.

Really, you do not understand the concept behind the assumption of
innocense. And really, you do not agree with it at all.

> (Although I must thank you 
> for all the "rape education" postings, which have helpfully provided 
> plenty of evidence that liars don't get off scot free!)

But you don't think that they provide any basis for doubting a woman's
clai, eh?

> > Somebody needs to do a large, serious, credible study and shed some 
> > light here.
> 
> No argument there.

No study will affect Kate's belief system I'm afraid.

> A first step would be for police to keep accurate 
> and consistent records of all reports and their outcomes.

The don't count the false rape reports Kate, and they rarely do
anything about em.

Rich
 
> Yours,
> - Kate Orman