Re: Rape Education Story #60

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Sky King) wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> Daran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > On 21 Nov 2003 11:00:29 -0800 Sky King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
> > message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > 
> > > Neil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > >> Sky King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message:
> > >> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
>  
> > >> > Gee...according to many feminist women never lie about being
> > >> > raped.....:)
> > >> 
> > >> Name one.
> > > 
> > > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=women+never+lie+about+rape&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=38303b5d.22118845%40news.inreach.com&rnum=1
> > > Women don't lie about rape." Legal theorist Catharine
> > 
> > The link points to an article by Cathy Young.  Here's the complete
> > paragraph:
> > 
> > #All too often, however, feminist rhetoric merely replaced the old
> > #stereotypes that viewed most rape complainants as scorned women or
> > #sex-crazed neurotics with an equally simplistic clich?: "Women don't lie
> > #about rape." Legal theorist Catharine MacKinnon asserts that "feminism is
> > #built on believing women's accounts of sexual use and abuse by men." Some
> > #colleges with speech codes have equated talk of false rape allegations with
> > #"discriminatory harassment." Activists may even refuse to believe "victims"
> > #who admit that they lied, suggesting that women recant out of fear or
> > #denial, and many bristle when the media publicize stories of falsely
> > #accused men.
> > 
> > Young does not attribute the words "Women don't lie about rape" to
> > MacKinnon.  What we have here is are unnamed "activists" whose views are
> > represented by Young as "Women don't lie about rape".  This fails to meet
> > the challenge to "name one".

This is one of the statements from Daran that disappointed me here.
Unless I missed something I believe that Sky was pretty reasonable in
this thread. He made a statement to the effect that (at least some)
feminists hold that "women don't like about rape". When challenged, he
produced a good amount of backup information that is plenty enough to
show that what he said was true.

As a side issue, those of us who have read a number of books about
this issue on both sides know that the "women don't like about rape"
line of thought is rather commonplace among feminists though perhaps a
variant phrase like "women hardly ever lie about rape" or "woman lie
about rape mainly when pressured from outside" would be more
mainstream among women who self-identify as feminists. It is true that
even the most forceful among the feminists are rarely so naive to say
the "women don't lie" phrase out loud.

It is rarely necessary to make pedantic points such as "women don't
lie". The goal of the problematic gender feminists (Hoff Summers) is
to put laws in place that assume that women don't lie, and let the
talking heads battle over the semantics to their hearts' content.

As I've mentioned several times, I have had the misfortune of real
world experiences that convinced me that the laws have gone too far in
favor of the "women don't lie" theory. I've been a witness in several
related cases. In one case, I learned from a man who had been clearly
falsely accused of sexual harassment that filing a countersuit, even
given the abundance of witnesses and supporting data showing that he
had been maliciously and falsely accused would be considered evidence
of "retaliation" and used against him in the original SH suit. Or for
filing another retaliation suit.

This blew me away. This left this guy with zero recourse- be sued and
shut up, pay a settlement, even with a mountain of evidence of the
malice and dishonesty of his accuser and a laughable paucity of
evidence for the claimed harassment. In fact, then entire premise from
the start was that it never mattered whether the guy had harassed
anyone, all that mattered was that his accuser was trying to find
anything and everything bad that had happened to her since she lodged
the false accusations to gather evidence of "retaliation". This is now
one of the popular strategies out there, to file a bogus charge
against your boss with the intent of making sure that one is always
advanced ahead of others, gets the largest pay raise, etc.

I am aware that it is these opinions and experiences that ultimately
make me unpopular on this ng, regardless of what side issues about
personality or style people raise to help them to pretend otherwise. I
think however that it serves women poorly to pretend these problems
(those caused by FRAs and related false accusations) don't exist or to
dismiss them as we go back to the "woman as victim" shtick that has
become so popular in the last few decades. Someday this will be
obvious, and people will wonder what they were thinking back in the
day when everyone accepted, at least from the practical viewpoint of
what the laws should say, that women don't lie. Someday, I believe, we
will grow up as a society and see women as real equals, not people who
need a steady stream of one-sided laws with the net effect of
demonizing men and assuming their guilt in any and all disputes unless
the evidence to the contrary is totally overwhelming.

> You said to name ONE feminist.  You did not say it had to be a one we all
> have heard about.


> > 
> > > http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume6/j6_2_4.htm Jenkins is not the
> > > first to cite this will to believe.  Wendy Kaminer (1993) reported that
> > > "it is a primary article of faith among many feminists that women don't
> > > lie about rape, ever; they lack the dishonesty gene" (p.67)...
> > 
> > Wendy Kaminer asserts that there are feminists who believe this, but does
> > not name one.

> Ah but she says there are feminist that believe this.  Do you think she is
> lying?

Exactly. It is rather ridiculous to concentrate on identifying some
individual feminist who is foolish enough to make such a statement for
attribution. As soon as she said it her friends would get her to
retract it. The real issue, of course, is the laws. As written, the
laws offer nearly carte blanche protection to women who raise false
accusations- with the implicit understanding that women are not
responsible or unemotional enough to be held accountable for their
actions in the same ways that are men. In many cases, they can't be
countersued for false accusations, as I learned to my considerable
shock, because to do so is to "retaliate". The implicit, unstated
understanding is that women are helpless, they are too emotional and
unstable to be held accountable for their actions, and that they are
"victims" and men "victimizers". This is the part that I'm most sick
of, even more so than when I think of male friends and acquaintances
who have been ripped off and harmed by the current laws.

> > > ...Eight years earlier, in 1985, John O'Sullivan discovered a widespread
> > > defense of the belief that "no woman would fabricate a rape charge"
> > > (p.22)...
> > 
> > But none of these defenders are named.
> 
> 
> Too many to name them.  Suffice to say that there are many.

Few will say such a thing for attribution. Better to just let your
political reps know that you think it, your elected judges, your
police department, etc. And that is what has happened.

> > > ...Feminists themselves admit as much.  Law Professor Susan Estrich stated
> > > that "the whole effort at reforming rape laws has been an attack on the
> > > premise that women who bring complaints are suspect" (Newsweek, 1985,
> > > p.61).  Some feminists believe that even defending that premise is a sex
> > > crime.  Alan Dershowitz (1993) reports that he was accused of sexual
> > > harassment for discussing in class the possibility of false rape
> > > allegations.
> > 
> > Interesting.  If Dershowitz claim is true, then it is appalling, but without
> > at least some elaboration, it does not support the claim that 'some
> > feminists believe that" and even if it did, none of these feminists are
> > named.

Do you really think that Dershowitz might be lying about this? More
important, it is evading the issue to concentrate so much on whether
any one person says "women don't lie" for attribution given that the
laws increasingly presume that to be true, and that the laws have the
effect of forgiving nearly any and all FRA and related false charges.
Clearly, in the US, the legal system presumes that women don't lie.


________________________________
 "Every great movement must experience three stages: ridicule,
discussion, adoption. "

-John Stuart Mill