Re: Rape Education Story #60

Daran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> On 21 Nov 2003 11:00:29 -0800 Sky King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
> message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> 
> > Neil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>  
> >> Sky King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message:
> >> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
>  
> >> > Gee...according to many feminist women never lie about being
> >> > raped.....:)
> >> 
> >> Name one.
> > 
> > http://groups.google.com/groups?q=women+never+lie+about+rape&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=38303b5d.22118845%40news.inreach.com&rnum=1
> > Women don't lie about rape." Legal theorist Catharine
> 
> The link points to an article by Cathy Young.  Here's the complete
> paragraph:
> 
> #All too often, however, feminist rhetoric merely replaced the old
> #stereotypes that viewed most rape complainants as scorned women or
> #sex-crazed neurotics with an equally simplistic clich?: "Women don't lie
> #about rape." Legal theorist Catharine MacKinnon asserts that "feminism is
> #built on believing women's accounts of sexual use and abuse by men." Some
> #colleges with speech codes have equated talk of false rape allegations with
> #"discriminatory harassment." Activists may even refuse to believe "victims"
> #who admit that they lied, suggesting that women recant out of fear or
> #denial, and many bristle when the media publicize stories of falsely
> #accused men.
> 
> Young does not attribute the words "Women don't lie about rape" to
> MacKinnon.  What we have here is are unnamed "activists" whose views are
> represented by Young as "Women don't lie about rape".  This fails to meet
> the challenge to "name one".


You said to name ONE feminist.  You did not say it had to be a one we all
have heard about.
> 
> The actual words attributed to Mackinnon in the article do not claim that
> women never lie, and seem to me to be nothing that an antifeminist would
> disagree with.  Indeed it seems to be one of the central complaint of
> antifeminism that feminism is built upon this belief.
> 
> I agree that Mackinnon's actual words are authoritative with respect to her
> own views.  I've never seen any evidence whatsoever, that her views are in
> any way representative of feminism as a whole.  Certainly every feminist
> I've ever spoken to thinks she's a wanker.
> 
> I also want to see some evidence that she actually said this, given the
> sheer volume of antifeminist lies circulating about her.  (I have a lot of
> respect for Young, BTW, and wouldn't expect her to misquote or
> misattribute.)
> 
> > http://www.menweb.org/throop/bash/quotes.html "Politically, I call it rape
> > whenever a woman has sex and feels violated. You might think thats too
> > broad. I'm not talking about sending all of you men to jail for that." --
> > Catherine MacKinnon "A Rally Against Rape" Feminism Unmodified
> 
> Does not say that women do not lie about rape.
> 
> > MacKinnon asserts that "feminism is built on believing women's accounts of
> > sexual use and abuse by men."
> 
> Discussed above.


But not refuted.
> 
> > http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume6/j6_2_4.htm Jenkins is not the
> > first to cite this will to believe.  Wendy Kaminer (1993) reported that
> > "it is a primary article of faith among many feminists that women don't
> > lie about rape, ever; they lack the dishonesty gene" (p.67)...
> 
> Wendy Kaminer asserts that there are feminists who believe this, but does
> not name one.


Ah but she says there are feminist that believe this.  Do you think she is
lying?
> 
> > ...Eight years earlier, in 1985, John O'Sullivan discovered a widespread
> > defense of the belief that "no woman would fabricate a rape charge"
> > (p.22)...
> 
> But none of these defenders are named.


Too many to name them.  Suffice to say that there are many.
> 
> > ...Feminists themselves admit as much.  Law Professor Susan Estrich stated
> > that "the whole effort at reforming rape laws has been an attack on the
> > premise that women who bring complaints are suspect" (Newsweek, 1985,
> > p.61).  Some feminists believe that even defending that premise is a sex
> > crime.  Alan Dershowitz (1993) reports that he was accused of sexual
> > harassment for discussing in class the possibility of false rape
> > allegations.
> 
> Interesting.  If Dershowitz claim is true, then it is appalling, but without
> at least some elaboration, it does not support the claim that 'some
> feminists believe that" and even if it did, none of these feminists are
> named.


Nice try pal.  You do not have to have specific names to know its true.
Now you are just playing little games.
> 
> > Light reading.:)
> 
> You have failed the challenge, Sky.  You have failed to name a single person
> who demonstrably (a) says this, and (b) is a feminist.


Wrong again.  You do not get to determine if I was successfull.  I will however
find an example when I have more time. I will expect to see a "Sky was right
and I was wrong" post by you soon.

> 
> I take my hat off to you, Sky.  You have provided real support for the
> claims of antifeminists in general in a truly dramatic and remarkable
> fashion.  Normally, I consider their persistent and lamentable failure to
> provide any evidence whatsoever in support of their claims, as prima facia
> evidence that the claims are, in fact, utter bullshit.  But in this case, I
> know the claim to be true, to a degree, and easily demonstrable, and must
> therefore attribute your failure to meet the challenge to your own
> incompetence.  Perhaps other antifeminist claims are true, but left unproven
> for the same reason.


Its not a matter of incompetence but of time. See above. I am good.
chuckle
> 
> I should like to accept Neil's challenge myself.  I name the Santa Barbara
> Rape Crisis Center as a (corporate) person, and Harriet Eckstein as an
> individual person who was the director of that body.
> 
> Proof that SBRCC says this:
> <http://www.sbrapecrisiscenter.org/04Information/myth2.html>
> 
> Proof that SBRCC is feminist: <http://www.sbrapecrisiscenter.org/01About
> Us/about.html>
> 
> (This is a space in that URL, which might break some newsreader's auto
> linking.)
> 
> Evidence of Eckstein's involvement with the SBRCC:
> <http://www.sbjuggle.org/html/ArticleIndependent.html>
> 
> That took 10 minutes Googling.  With a little more time, I sure I could have
> identified a verifiably feminist individual person who has said this
> directly, but I've wasted more than enough of my life on this already. 
> soc.men and AUK added.