Re: Rape Education Story #60

On 21 Nov 2003 11:00:29 -0800 Sky King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...

> Neil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...

>> Sky King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message:
>> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:

>> > Gee...according to many feminist women never lie about being
>> > raped.....:)
>> 
>> Name one.
> 
> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=women+never+lie+about+rape&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=38303b5d.22118845%40news.inreach.com&rnum=1
> Women don't lie about rape." Legal theorist Catharine

The link points to an article by Cathy Young.  Here's the complete
paragraph:

#All too often, however, feminist rhetoric merely replaced the old
#stereotypes that viewed most rape complainants as scorned women or
#sex-crazed neurotics with an equally simplistic clich?: "Women don't lie
#about rape." Legal theorist Catharine MacKinnon asserts that "feminism is
#built on believing women's accounts of sexual use and abuse by men." Some
#colleges with speech codes have equated talk of false rape allegations with
#"discriminatory harassment." Activists may even refuse to believe "victims"
#who admit that they lied, suggesting that women recant out of fear or
#denial, and many bristle when the media publicize stories of falsely
#accused men.

Young does not attribute the words "Women don't lie about rape" to
MacKinnon.  What we have here is are unnamed "activists" whose views are
represented by Young as "Women don't lie about rape".  This fails to meet
the challenge to "name one".

The actual words attributed to Mackinnon in the article do not claim that
women never lie, and seem to me to be nothing that an antifeminist would
disagree with.  Indeed it seems to be one of the central complaint of
antifeminism that feminism is built upon this belief.

I agree that Mackinnon's actual words are authoritative with respect to her
own views.  I've never seen any evidence whatsoever, that her views are in
any way representative of feminism as a whole.  Certainly every feminist
I've ever spoken to thinks she's a wanker.

I also want to see some evidence that she actually said this, given the
sheer volume of antifeminist lies circulating about her.  (I have a lot of
respect for Young, BTW, and wouldn't expect her to misquote or
misattribute.)

> http://www.menweb.org/throop/bash/quotes.html "Politically, I call it rape
> whenever a woman has sex and feels violated. You might think thats too
> broad. I'm not talking about sending all of you men to jail for that." --
> Catherine MacKinnon "A Rally Against Rape" Feminism Unmodified

Does not say that women do not lie about rape.

> MacKinnon asserts that "feminism is built on believing women's accounts of
> sexual use and abuse by men."

Discussed above.

> http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume6/j6_2_4.htm Jenkins is not the
> first to cite this will to believe.  Wendy Kaminer (1993) reported that
> "it is a primary article of faith among many feminists that women don't
> lie about rape, ever; they lack the dishonesty gene" (p.67)...

Wendy Kaminer asserts that there are feminists who believe this, but does
not name one.

> ...Eight years earlier, in 1985, John O'Sullivan discovered a widespread
> defense of the belief that "no woman would fabricate a rape charge"
> (p.22)...

But none of these defenders are named.

> ...Feminists themselves admit as much.  Law Professor Susan Estrich stated
> that "the whole effort at reforming rape laws has been an attack on the
> premise that women who bring complaints are suspect" (Newsweek, 1985,
> p.61).  Some feminists believe that even defending that premise is a sex
> crime.  Alan Dershowitz (1993) reports that he was accused of sexual
> harassment for discussing in class the possibility of false rape
> allegations.

Interesting.  If Dershowitz claim is true, then it is appalling, but without
at least some elaboration, it does not support the claim that 'some
feminists believe that" and even if it did, none of these feminists are
named.

> Light reading.:)

You have failed the challenge, Sky.  You have failed to name a single person
who demonstrably (a) says this, and (b) is a feminist.

I take my hat off to you, Sky.  You have provided real support for the
claims of antifeminists in general in a truly dramatic and remarkable
fashion.  Normally, I consider their persistent and lamentable failure to
provide any evidence whatsoever in support of their claims, as prima facia
evidence that the claims are, in fact, utter bullshit.  But in this case, I
know the claim to be true, to a degree, and easily demonstrable, and must
therefore attribute your failure to meet the challenge to your own
incompetence.  Perhaps other antifeminist claims are true, but left unproven
for the same reason.

I should like to accept Neil's challenge myself.  I name the Santa Barbara
Rape Crisis Center as a (corporate) person, and Harriet Eckstein as an
individual person who was the director of that body.

Proof that SBRCC says this:
<http://www.sbrapecrisiscenter.org/04Information/myth2.html>

Proof that SBRCC is feminist: <http://www.sbrapecrisiscenter.org/01About
Us/about.html>

(This is a space in that URL, which might break some newsreader's auto
linking.)

Evidence of Eckstein's involvement with the SBRCC:
<http://www.sbjuggle.org/html/ArticleIndependent.html>

That took 10 minutes Googling.  With a little more time, I sure I could have
identified a verifiably feminist individual person who has said this
directly, but I've wasted more than enough of my life on this already. 
soc.men and AUK added.

-- 
Daran

It is very hard for evil to take hold of the unconsenting soul.
- Ursula Le Guin