Re: Tibetans fear $3.2 billion railroad is being built at their expense

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Guardiangel) wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> "Sutek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > "Guardiangel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Thomas J Wheat) wrote in message
>  news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Guardiangel) wrote in message
>  news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Thomas J Wheat) wrote in message
>  news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Guardiangel) wrote in message
>  news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Thomas J Wheat) wrote in message
>  news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Guardiangel) wrote in message
>  news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > > > > > > Read this article carefully or you will be brainwashed
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Thomas J Wheat) wrote in message
>  news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > > > > > > > Tibetans fear $3.2 billion railroad is being built at their
>  expense
> > > > > > > > > > Los Angeles Times
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.charleston.net/stories/110703/wor_07tibet.shtml
> > > > > > > > > > LHASA, TIBET--Beijing's plan to pacify this restive
>  Himalayan province
> > > > > > > > > > involves a $3.2 billion railroad that will connect the rest
>  of China
> > > > > > > > > > to the frozen Tibetan plateau known as the roof of the
>  world.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The railroad, billed as the world's highest and due to be
>  completed in
> > > > > > > > > > 2007, represents the linchpin of China's ambitious "Go West"
>  campaign
> > > > > > > > > > to develop and repopulate its impoverished hinterland.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > But Tibetans opposed to Chinese control say the railroad's
> > > > > > > > > > construction, which began last year, has so far confirmed
>  their worst
> > > > > > > > > > fears: that the train, although it may usher in rapid
>  progress, will
> > > > > > > > > > transform Tibet's desolate nomadic culture into a land of
> > > > > > > > > > inequalities.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "We went to inquire about railroad jobs but they said it's
>  all been
> > > > > > > > > > taken," said Tenzin, a 22-year-old Tibetan farmer from Gansu
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Tibetans opposed to Chinese control"? And now the "reporter"
>  is
> > > > > > > > > quoting some word from a person who is from Gansu Province
>  instead of
> > > > > > > > > Tibet! Most of the Singaporeans[78%]are ethnic Chinese, but
>  people
> > > > > > > > > won't call them "Chinese"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Obviously, it is misleading..
> > > > > > > > This still does not obscure the fact that the majority of jobs
>  some
> > > > > > > > 85% have gone to Han chinese. Why not hire more tibetans to
>  build the
> > > > > > > > railroad. Supposedly its being built for their benefit.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > not a single evidence existed when the ethnic background(i.e.
>  being
> > > > > > > Tibetans) is the reason of being rejected to the jobs
> > > > > > prove it! You don't think I am going to take you at your word. How
> > > > > > could you know? You probably have never been to Tibet let alone be
> > > > > > capable of sympathising with Tibetans undergoing occupation.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You ask me to prove/show something which doesn't exist? What kind of
> > > > > logic is it? Dont waste time, come and prove the existence of such
> > > > > "Ethnic-oriented" employment situation.
> > > >
> > > > the proof is as we americans like to say is in the pudding. Its
> > > > blatantly obvious that there is ethnic discrimination. That's why they
> > > > have hired a disproportionate number of ethnic chinese to build the
> > > > railroad. Also I asked you first. The burden of proof is on you.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > No offence, but its really ridiculous. I ask you to prove it, it means
> > > you need to show us that the unemployment of this Gansy boy is due to
> > > his identity of "ethnic Tibetan" instead of his identity of
> > > "FARMER"(or something else). It is you who seems claiming that the
> > > situation is simply caused by his Ethnic background.
> > >
> > > If he is a local Tibetan who graduated from univ/vocational
> > > school("trained"), I believe everything will be different. Understand
> > > my point now?
> > You don't understand that ethnic Tibetans don't get a fair chance at getting
> > jobs OR employment OR education.
> 
> 
> empty talk, the Han people and even the CCP<since the 1950s> authority
> in the region are very sensitive on the racial issue[Grunfeld, 'The
> Making of Modern Tibey']. You should convince us that, for example ,
> the case of this Gansu boy is caused by his ethnic backround instead
> of his academic qualification
I don't think the gansu farmer would need any sort of academic
training. All he would need was to be able to work hard, swing a
hammer and drive a spike in the rail. Its not rocket science.
> 
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >, formerly
> > > > > > > > > > part of Tibet, but now a Chinese province.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > China's control over Kansu predated the existence the first
> > > > > > > > > proto-Tibetan state. How come Kansu was "formerly part of
>  Tibet"?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "historical differences and current political realities make
>  the
> > > > > > > > > creation of a Greater Tibet extremely improbable, at least
>  initially"
> > > > > > > > > --Goldstein, Tibetologist from CWRU, "The Snow Lion and the
>  Dragon"
> > > > > > > > >
>  how about a page number for this quote
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >"We've been here four
> > > > > > > > > > months and we can't find anything. We're willing to be
>  waiters,
> > > > > > > > > > security guards, tour guides, anything. But no one wants
>  us."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The Chinese seem to have an extra edge. That's because
>  education and
> > > > > > > > > > the ability to speak Mandarin Chinese are the basic criteria
>  for most
> > > > > > > > > > jobs.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Quality Control", no big deal!
> > > > > > > > Sounds like han chauvenisim and exclusivisim. AQdmit it you
>  think
> > > > > > > > Chinese are better than Tibetans.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > read the original msg you post, the Gansu boy is a FARMER, and
>  we/they
> > > > > > > need well-trained/skilled people. Heartfully, I myself won't hire
>  a
> > > > > > > FARMER for my house's interior design...
> > > > > > I am sure you don't need much training to drive a railroad spike
>  into
> > > > > > a rail. You swing a hammer and drive the spike in the rail. You just
> > > > > > have to be able to work hard. Also this is just one farmer I am sure
> > > > > > thousands of Tibetans could capably do the work. Here again you are
> > > > > > showing your racist nature when you say the Tibetans aren't capable
>  of
> > > > > > building railroads.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm talking about the Gansu "FARMER". Are all Tibetans farmers? You
> > > > > tell me.
> > > > >
> > > >  no but alot of them want to work at building the qinghai railroad.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > What has the Qinghai railways got to do with the Tibetans? "Greater
> > > Tibet" again?
> >  It's being used to help screw them over.
> 
> 
> HOW? as Thomas Wheat pointed out they want to work at it
On another note it seems that the rail is being built for two reasons.
1.)For the speedy deployment of chinese troops to tibet in case of an
uprising. 2.) To facilitate the colonial resettlement of Tibet by han
chinese. Only history will prove this latter assertion correct.
> 
> 
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Needless to say the **railway system**
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Tibetans have fought for preservation of their culture since
>  China
> > > > > > > > > > annexed their homeland in 1951.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Since the year of 1914 the Tibetans has clearly reaffirmed
>  their
> > > > > > > > > homeland as part of China.
> > > > > > > > No china never signed the Simla treaty. They were only witnesses
>  to
> > > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Tibetans signed it. I said "THE TIBETANS"
> > > > > >  The treaty was null and void because china never signed it.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I am talking about the Tibetans' attutude, not the legality of this
> > > > > treaty. BTW, both Lochen Shartra and Chen I-Fan signed the 7-point
> > > > > "Schedule". And in 1934 they reaffirmed such status.
> > > > >
> > > >  please cite source for this.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > M.C. Goldstein's "A History of Modern Tibet"[Univ of Cal. Press] has
> > > the FULL texts of both 'Simla Agreement and Schedule of 1914" and the
> > > "Ten-Point Statement of 1934".
> > >
> > > Secondly, although the TibetJustice website claimed their text as
> > > "reproduced" from Van Praag's book, I remember that I have seen the
> > > Initial of Chen I-Fan on Van Praag's copies of the Simla documents.
> > Your memory is good enough for us, or any court in the world.
> > <snicker>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > International attention has been drawn
> > > > > > > > > > to their independence movement by the Dalai Lama, the exiled
>  spiritual
> > > > > > > > > > leader driven from here in 1959 when the Chinese crushed a
>  failed
> > > > > > > > > > uprising.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The Dalai Lama has repeatedly spoken out against what he
>  calls a
> > > > > > > > > > cultural genocide by Chinese occupiers in Tibet. Beijing
>  considers the
> > > > > > > > > > Nobel laureate a separatist bent on breaking up the nation.
>  Chinese
> > > > > > > > > > authorities have banned his portrait here.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > But many Tibetans secretly display his image in their homes
>  and pray
> > > > > > > > > > to him.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Beijing has tried to squelch the independence movement by
>  pumping in
> > > > > > > > > > cash. It poured as much as $1.6 billion into the Tibetan
>  economy last
> > > > > > > > > > year alone, which officials say represented the largest
>  investment in
> > > > > > > > > > any province.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Tibet's stability is China's stability. Tibet's development
>  is
> > > > > > > > > > China's development," said Xiangba Pingcuo, Tibet's
>  governor.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Beijing says the railroad is the economic salvation Tibet
>  needs.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Tibet is the only province without a rail link. The people
>  of Tibet
> > > > > > > > > > want development. The railroad is the hope of everybody
>  here," said
> > > > > > > > > > Tajie, the deputy mayor of Lhasa.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The Chinese who live here feel they would be the main
>  beneficiaries.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "They're probably building the railroad for us," said Chen
>  Yajun, 32,
> > > > > > > > > > a taxi driver from central China's Sichuan province. "It'll
>  be easier
> > > > > > > > > > and cheaper to go home."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Some of the train's first passengers will probably be its
>  Chinese
> > > > > > > > > > construction workers. Of the 38,000 hired for the job, only
>  6,000 are
> > > > > > > > > > Tibetans. The rest were trucked in from inland provinces.
>  Semi-skilled
> > > > > > > > > > employees make as much as 11 times more money than manual
>  laborers.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > None of the 2,700 workers who operate heavy equipment or
>  hold
> > > > > > > > > > supervisory jobs is Tibetan, according to Huang Difu, an
>  official in
> > > > > > > > > > charge of the project.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Among the biggest losers of this lopsided gold rush are
>  Tibetans
> > > > > > > > > > hoping for a share of the riches transforming their city.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "I feel sad for Tibet," said Jonu, a 19-year-old Tibetan who
>  came to
> > > > > > > > > > pray at the Johkang temple. "So many Chinese are coming."
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Lhasa already has the look and feel of a Chinese city, with
> > > > > > > > > > Chinese-style buildings
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Han/Chinese-style building has appeared in Tibet for hundreds
>  of year.
> > > > > > > > > For example, the golden roof of the wellknown Potala Palace
>  was
> > > > > > > > > designed by the artists sent by the Chinese emperors.
>  Generally,
> > > > > > > > > Tibetan customs/culture/arts is historically and heavily
>  influenced by
> > > > > > > > > that of the Han Chinese[Norwich, 'Oxford Illustrated
>  Encyclopedia of
> > > > > > > > > the Arts',1990]
> > > > > > > > You are wrong you are suggesting that there is no Tibetan style
>  only a
> > > > > > > > homogenous Han Chinese style.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > who said they should have no Tibetan-style building? If you're
> > > > > > > speechless please dont put your non-sense words into my mouth.
>  Han
> > > > > > > Culture and Tibetan culture are historically affected by each
> > > > > > > other,[e.g. Calendar: Twelve animals...etc]
> > > > > > The Tibetan calender is different from the chinese calender. They
>  use
> > > > > > different animals.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > what different anumals? Show us with quoted reference/sources.
> > > > >
> > > > > [I can show you NOW in Tibetan -- Byi, Glang, Stag, Yos, Hbrug, Sprul,
> > > > > Rta, Lug, Sprel, Bya, Khyi, Phag]
> > > > >
> > > > I assume this is the english translation of what you wrote in Tibetan.
> > > > rat, ox, tiger, rabbit, dragon, snake, horse, sheep, monkey, bird,
> > > > dog, pig,
> > > > Also
> > > > tibetan new year has a different date then the chinese new year,
> > > > Tibetan new year is feburary 21st, chinese new year is january 22.
> > > > Obviously they use different dating methods. So their calenders are
> > > > different.
> > >
> > >
> > > You seem sidestepping the issue. Please answer me first what's the
> > > difference between the "12 Animals" of Han and those of Tibet.
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Also Art historians around the world have
> > > > > > identified a unique architectural style that is classically Tibetan
> > > > > > and distinct from Chinese.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Art Historians around the world? Quote what they all said to support
> > > > > your wild claims. As "Oxford Encyclopedia of the Arts" points out,
> > > > > Han/Chinese culture HEAVILY influences that of the Tibetans. It means
> > > > > the development of Tibetan arts/culture is hardly independent. Even a
> > > > > strong TI supporter was forced to admit:
> > > > >
> > > > > "We may in fact say that the present civilization of Tibet is taken
> > > > > mainly from China and only to a lesser degree from India. The general
> > > > > appliances of civilization...have come from China"
> > > > > --Charles Bell, 13th DL's chief foreign advisor, "Tibet: Past and
> > > > > Present"
> > > > a page number would help here.
> > >
> > >
> > > May I ask: the Arts Encyclopedia or Charles Bell's book?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Also it may say that Tibetans may have
> > > > utilized chinese technology that doesn't mean that they didn't have a
> > > > indigenous style all their own. even you admit Tibet was independant
> > > > from 1st century b.c. until the Yuan dynasty. Don't you think they
> > > > would have developed their own unique style.
> > >
> > >
> > > Remember the "Tang-Tubo marriages"? In the 630s, when Songtsan Gambo
> > > founded the Tubo Kingdom, which was a slavery system, the Tang Dynasty
> > > under Emperor Taizong was in its prime. The highly developed politics,
> > > economics and culture of the Tang Dynasty exerted heavy influence on
> > > countries in the east(and in Europe as well) Songtsan Gambo were
> > > strongly interested in Tang, and so took the initiative to strengthen
> > > contacts with the China Proper. The Tibetan ruler did his best to
> > > absorb advanced production technology and culture from the Han people
> > > in the mainland. He sent his ministers to Chang-an on several
> > > occasions to seek a marriage with a Tang princess. His effort
> > > succeeded in 641 when Princess Wen Cheng, a daughter of Tang Emperor
> > > Taizong's family system, was greeted into Tibet. Her dowry included
> > > statues of Sakyamuni, the founder of Buddhism, and 360 volumes of
> > > Buddhist scriptures and classic works. Legend has it that Emperor
> > > Taizong also gave her various religious objects, food, 300 classic
> > > texts used for practicing divination and performing a sorcerer's
> > > dance, a bronze bowl used as a mirror that could tell good from evil,
> > > 60 varieties of books on construction and industrial arts, 100 medical
> > > prescriptions for 404 diseases, six types of medical tools, four
> > > medical books, and large amounts of silk and clothing. Princess
> > > Wencheng carried the statues of Sakyamuni in a horse-drawn carriage,
> > > and used mules and horses to transport the other articles. She brought
> > > into Tubo large numbers of artisans, varieties of crop seeds, and
> > > domesticated animals. Songtsan Gambo made a special trip to the
> > > headwaters of the Yellow River to greet the Tang princess. According
> > > to The Lineage of the Tubo Kingdom, Princess Wen Cheng, while on her
> > > way to Tubo, taught the Tibetans how to reclaim land and grow crops,
> > > erect water mills, make ropes from grass, and make sweet foods. When
> > > she reached Lhasa, she was given a rousing welcome with all the people
> > > taking to the streets to greet her. This knowledgeable Han woman
> > > believed in Buddhism. She designed and built the Jokhang and Ramoqe
> > > monasteries in places she chose. Her actions won the respect and love
> > > of the Tibetans. After the marriage, Songtsan Gambo introduced rice
> > > mill, paper and ink making technologies from the Han area. During the
> > > period, farm tools and pottery making technology also made their way
> > > into Tubo from the Tang China along with textile, metallurgical and
> > > building technologies. Today, the broad masses of the Tibetans still
> > > spin yarns about how Princess Wencheng taught the Tubo women to weave
> > > and embroider. While creating a Tibetan written language, Songtsan
> > > Gambo sent children of noble families to study poetry in Chang-an. He
> > > also invited Han men of letters to help write his legal codes and
> > > official documents. These efforts greatly enhanced Tubo's social
> > > productive forces and promoted economic and cultural development.
> > >
> > > In 704 when Tride Zhotsan came to the throne of the Tubo Kingdom, his
> > > grandmother Molu held court and, on many occasions, dispatched
> > > officials to Chang'an to seek a marriage between a Tang princess and
> > > the Tubo king. Tang Emperor Zhongzong agreed to marry Princess Jin
> > > Cheng to Tride Zhotsan in 710. Princess Jin Cheng entered Tubo
> > > bringing embroidered silks, books on handicraft making technology,
> > > articles of daily use and Qiuzi (present-day Kuche in Xinjiang) music.
> > > She also brought into Tubo many artisans and acrobats. In 712, the
> > > Tang Emperor Xuanzong was enthroned, ushering in a new period of peace
> > > in Tang China. This situation exerted enormous influence on Tubo.
> > > During this period, Princess JinCheng, extraordinarily talented as she
> > > was, financed monks in Yutian to enter Tubo and built monasteries for
> > > them to use in the study and translation of Buddhist scriptures. She
> > > introduced famous Han classics from the Tang court, such as The Books
> > > of Poetry[Mao Heng's version], Book of Rites, Zuo Zhuang [the famous
> > > commentary by Zuo Qiuming on The Spring and Autumn Annals] and
> > > Selected Works[a well-known selection noted for essays of elegant
> > > style dating from early centuries AD]. The Book of Rites and Tactics
> > > of the Warring States were translated into Tibetan. These helped boost
> > > social development and economic and cultural prosperity in Tubo.
> > >
> > > Reciprocally, many aspects of the Tibetan culture were absorbed by the
> > > Han. For example, people in Tang China learned to play the traditional
> > > ball games of the Tubo people; and Han women learned to do their hair
> > > and makeup in the manner of the Tubo women. These two cultures
> > > naturally enriched each other.
> > Oh that's great. The Han take everything else and are "enriched" by a ball
> > game and makeup. Are you on opium?
> 
> 
> I said "for example", read what I quoted from Charles Bell
> 
> 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > >  Let me give you an example. The Tibetan Chorten has  a slight
> > > > resemblance to a nepali Stupa, and definetly does not resemble a
> > > > chinese pagoda. What do you have to say about that.
> > >
> > >
> > > [1]What you say cannot prove that Tibetan culture is independent, as
> > > you said it is a "Nepali" style, which seems not exclusive in Tibet.
> > > It only shows the architechtural culture of the neibouring state of
> > > Nepal has (limited) influence on that of Tibet.
> > It WAS independent. No culture develops for long totally independently, but
> > will draw from others. That does not prove that it is not independent. Using
> > your logic, China is a part of the United States.
> 
> 
> I was talking about the relationship between Tang and Tibet, Hav I
> ever said that Tibet was part of Nepal or part of Tang-China?
No but you must admit that something unique as Tibetan culture does
exist. It is different than chinese culture. Tibetan culture is a
synthesis of nepali Newari, Indian and chinese cultural elements as
well as a incorporating a unique indigenous style as well. For example
look at Tibetan Thanka painting. It is totally different from chinese
art.
> 
> 
> 
> > >
> > > [2]And it is not "Slight resemblance", the one of Tibetans is highly
> > > identical to what you can see in Nepal, and see [3]
>  SFW?
> > >
> > > [3]At least...there is also one another Nepali Dagoda in the city of
> > > Beijing: namely the "White Dagoba" in Miaoyingsi Temple.
> >  They stole that too?
> 
> 
> It was designed by Anigo, a Nepali techologist who was invited by the
> Yuan emperor in Beijing. In this city alone, the same kind of Pagoda
> can be found in West Yellow Temple, ZhenJueSi Temple...etc
> 
> 
> > >
> > >
> > > > Another example is
> > > > the Potala palace, it is also built in the Tibetan style.
> > >
> > >
> > > [sigh]
> > >
> > > You didn't pay attention to what I previously said. Potala palace is a
> > > mixture of Han and Tibetan architechtural cultures. See the "Golden
> > > roof"?
> > Big deal. Some things happen through coincidence. Greek Orthodox church
> > roofs resemble Moslem temples, does that mean that the Orthodox religion is
> > a part of Islam?
> 
> <sigh>
> once again, I was talking about the Tang era when Tibetan and
> Han/Chinese cultures enriched each other. Mr Wheat and I both agree
> that Tang-China and Tibet were two different political entities. No
> offence, but you really pay not much attention.
> 
> 
> 
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Here again your Han Chauvenisim is blurring
> > > > > > the distinction between two seperate cultures.
> > > > >
> > > > >
>  <snip>
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You are wrong. The modern architecture
> > > > > > > > going up in Lhasa is neither classical chinese or Tibetan
> > > > > > > > architecture, rather postmodern trash.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As you said it is "postmodern". Tibet seems to be **westernized**
> > > > > > > instead of "Sinicized". Sinicization has appeared for hundreds of
>  year
> > > > > > By post modern i mean the style of architecture is neither classical
> > > > > > chinese or Tibetan, rather a conflagaration of billboards and neon
> > > > > > sighns which did by the way originate in the West.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Not sign shows that it is exclusive in China
> > > >  can you clarify what you have written here.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > postmodern buildings appear in many other parts of the world. It's
> > > hardly a "Sinicization"[Han-Hua]. Know what I mean now?
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > and Chinese billboards proliferating across
> > > > > > > > > > town. More than half the 200,000 residents here are believed
>  to be
> > > > > > > > > > Chinese. Even the main boulevard in front of the Dalai
>  Lama's holy
> > > > > > > > > > Potala Palace is named Beijing Road.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Beijing control over Tibet[1288-present] predated the
>  existence of the
> > > > > > > > > first Dalai Lama, Dge-'dun grub, [1391-1474]
> > > > > > > > Wrong it was the mongols who had control at that time not the
>  Chinese.
> > > > > > > > When are the chinese going to learn that the Yuan dynasty was a
>  mongol
> > > > > > > > foreign control over china.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ignorant. Similar to the Qing rulers, Kubilai Khan claimed himself
>  as
> > > > > > > the Emperor of China, he adopted the dynastic name of Yuan (as
>  well as
> > > > > > > the Han/Chinese traditional government system) claiming himself
>  the
> > > > > > > legitimate ruler following the previous SuiTang/Sung Dynasties.
> > > > > > > Everybody regarded "Yuan" as one of the (greatest) 26 dynasties of
> > > > > > > China. <Even the official title of Phagspa, Tibet's local ruler,
>  was
> > > > > > > "Great Yuan Imperial Tutor>
> > > > > > Kublai Khan was a mongol. A mongol from Mongolia (a internationally
> > > > > > recognized sovereign independant country)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Inner Mongolia, where most of the Mongols live in, is now part of
> > > > > China
> > > > >
> > > > Yes because of the imperialism of Joseph Stalin inner mongolia is now
> > > > part of china.
> > >
> > > What has it got to do with that bloody late-comer of J. Stalin? Since
> > > the imperial era inner mongolia has been already part of China. ROC
> > > had formally three provinces in the region until the Japanese Imperial
> > > Army invaded North China and establshed the puppet regime of
> > > Mengjiang.[literally: Mongol territories]
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > conquered China in 1288
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 1288? Are you sure?
> > > >  oops, 1279.
> > >
> > >
> > > ok, even before 1279 Kubilai Khan had transformed his Mongol Khanate
> > > into a Chinese State. An Amercian historian who specify in studying
> > > the Yuan China cannnot but admit that:
> > >
> > > "He[Kubilai] appealed to his Chinese subjects for help in reunifying
> > > China under his rule, but he did so within a Chinese context. A few
> > > days after issuing his proclmation, he adopted a Chinese reign title,
> > > Chung-Tung(Central Rule), like a typical Chinese emperor. In addition,
> > > he created government institutions that either resembled or were the
> > > same as the tradition Chinese ones.....Khubilai wished to signal to
> > > the Chinese that he intended to adopt the trappings and style of a
> > > Chinese ruler"
> > > -M. Rossabi, 'Kubilai Khan: His Life and Time', Univ of Cal. Press,
> > > p56
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > does
> > > > > > not mean that China can lay claim to Mongolia on the basis of of
> > > > > > Mongol conquest.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > It is ludicrous and faulty logic to suppose that this
> > > > > > was a sinicized dynasty.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > How ludicrous/faulty? Manchurian's invasion of China integrated
> > > > > Manchria into China. Its called Han assimiliation.
> > > > >
> > > > The qing dynasty while it lasted was a foreign dynasty. China proper,
> > > > Han chinese were subjugated by foreign rulers that had previously
> > > > never been under Han control. All of the top Qing bureacrats were
> > > > Manchurian. With the fall of the dynasty and the establishment of the
> > > > republic then China could lay claim to this area, only because she had
> > > > the force of arms and the will to conquer.
> > > > Also by the same fact that Mongolia is independant today and has not
> > > > been assimilated by the Han.
> > >
> > >
> > > WHAT? It is the "foreigners"(Yuan and Qing Emperors), instead of
> > > simply the Han subject, who claimed their state as a Chinese
> > > State["China"]. If you can read Chinese, you can try Qing/Manchu
> > > Emperor Yongzheng's book "Great Righteousness Resolving Confusion",
> > > reads in part:
> > >
> > > "Since my dynasty took over the Central Plain[i.e. China
> > > Proper]...with intergration of the Mongol tribes (into China), the
> > > territory of China can now be extended, it is the Great fortune to the
> > > Chinese People. (Therefore) Why distinguish between Hua(Chinese) and
> > > Yi("Barbarians", i.e. Mongol, Manchu...etc)"
> > >
> > > Its logically similar to Catherine the Great, a pure-German princess
> > > who later  regards/claimed herself as the sovereign of Tzarist
> > > Russia("Tzarina"). Catherine's takeover of the Tzarist throne doesnt
> > > mean Russia suddenly disappear or "become part of
> > > Deutschland/Germany". Everone on this planet knows she was a Russian
> > > soveriegn even though she was not ethnic-Russian
> > >
> > > Has your 'confusion' got 'resolved'? :->
> >  Nobody can learn with your perverted logic.
> 
> 
> HOW perverted? Please pay attention to what Thomas and I was talking
> about before you draw such sophomoric conclusion. If a non-Russian
> like Catherine the Great can become a Russian Monarch, why cannot a
> non-Han became the Emperor of China? Answer me if you're such familiar
> with the logic.
> 
> 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >The mongols may have used the chinese
> > > > > > governmental system however that system had the majority of
>  governors
> > > > > > and top level administrators were Mongol and not chinese. Chinese
> > > > > > bureacrats during the Yuan dynasty were low man on the totem pole.
> > > > > > Face it it the Yuan was a period of foreign control over China.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > These elements match the case of Qing dynasty. We all, even in
> > > > > international treaties, regards Qing as "China".
> > > > The manchus at that time prior to invasion in 1644 were not regarded
> > > > as one of the races of chinese.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It is the _Manchu_ (also Mongols for "Yuan")who regarded the Qing
> > > Empire as the legitimate "Chinese Nation"! For example, in the Treaty
> > > of Nerchinsk in 1689, the Manchu voluntarily called their ruler,
> > > Kangxi, "The Great Holy Chinese Emperor"[Zhongguo Daxing Huangdi].
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Tibet
> > > > > > may have been part of Mongolia at this time not china. China was
>  part
> > > > > > of Mongolia at this time.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > In the Yuan Dynasty, Monglia, namely "Lingbei(Mountain-North)
> > > > > Province", was one of the 11 Provinces, directly ruled by Central
> > > > > Government in Dadu/Beijing. It is similar with Qing dynasty. Kubilai
> > > > > Khan ruled Mongolia from beijing not from
> > > > All of Kublai Khan's bureacrats, at least the top levels were mongols
> > > > not chinese.
> > >
> > >
> > > obviously it is wrong. He needed Han people to help him develop the
> > > Chinese State of Yuan. See above
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As I've said before, you can be a Chinese["People of China"]
>  without
> > > > > > > being a Han. There are Mongol-ruled China, Tibetan-ruled China,
> > > > > > > Manchu-ruled China and Han-ruled China thru out the five thousand
> > > > > > > years of Chinese history. And the term "China/Chinese/Zhongguo"
>  means
> > > > > > > "Central State", hardly a term exclusive for any ethnic groups
> > > > > >  the Xia were Huns not Tibetans.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Read more books, the founders of West Xia, the Qiang nationality,
> > > > > moved from SW the Tibetan plateau, not the north. There was even no
> > > > > "Hun" political entity groups appearing within the area of China.
> > > > > "Hun" has became then-Mongols
> > > > i found this Xia site on the internet I think you should have a look.
> > > > It says that the Xia spoke a proto- Tibetan Burman dialect, a language
> > > > called Tangut and that they may be related to Tibetans they were a
> > > > seperate nationality  more related to the Qiang.
> > > > http://www.uglychinese.org/xixia.htm
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I dont think it is accurate using the term "seperate nationality", The
> > > local mainland Tibetans(e.g. Lhasa, UsTsang...) of cos, due to the two
> > > different historical developments, has (slight) difference with that
> > > of the "non-Local Tibetans". Read what it said on the website:
> > >
> > > "This dwelling place of the Dangxiang people and the Tuyuhun people
> > > would be called Frontal Tibet or Outer Tibet in later times"
> > >
> > > As I've said before even the Tibetan name "Us-Tsang"[mainland Tibet]
> > > was derived from the word "Qiang". All these tribes, Qiang, DangXiang,
> > > Tibetan, are of one single "ethnic-Tibetan" system/family
> > The bottom line is that the Chinese invaded Tibet by force in modern times
> > and murdered millions.
> 
> 
> As I've told you before since the 90s the exiled Tibetan
> leaders,including DL and Ngwawang Jigme, have admitted that this
> number is fabricated
82,000 were killed during the initial uprising in 1959.
> 
> 
> > You idiots try to justify it, but nothing in hell can
> > do that.
> 
> 
> After the Qing/Chinese Empire collapsed the Tibetans signed the 1914
> Simla document which reaffirmed Tibet as "part of Chinese
> Territory"[Point 1, 'Schedule' of 1914], why Chinese/PLA army cannot
> march into *Chinese* Territory afterward(1951)? Is there any pre-War
> document which claims Iraq as part of the United States? Why the
> Americans invaded Iraq by force?
> 
> Get my point now?
yes you have shown two cases of imperialism. also the chinese declined
to sign the Simla treaty. also Both Governments [Tibet and great
britiain] declared that China would be barred from claiming any
privileges arising from the document for as long as their signature
was withheld.

> 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >  <snip>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Tibet's status has been intertwined with China since the 7th
>  century
> > > > > > > through marriages, wars, and treaties. Mongol conquests in the
>  13th
> > > > > > > century made Tibet part of a Mongol-ruled Chinese state, and four
> > > > > > > centuries later the ethnic Manchu Qing dynasty further
>  incorporated
> > > > > > > Tibet into China"
> > > > > > > --A. Tom Grunfeld, Tibetologist from SUNY, "Reassessing Tibet
>  Policy",
> > > > > > > 2000
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Even Chinese tourists, who come here expecting to see exotic
>  Tibetan
> > > > > > > > > > faces and snowcapped mountains, shake their heads in
>  disbelief when
> > > > > > > > > > they see the new Lhasa.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "The tour guide told us about 80 percent of the people
>  living here now
> > > > > > > > > > are Chinese and most of them are from Sichuan," said Liu
>  Fuyou, 50, a
> > > > > > > > > > tourist from the coastal city of Tianjin wearing a straw
>  cowboy hat.
> > > > > > > > > > "This is no longer Lhasa city, Tibet province. This is Lhasa
>  city,
> > > > > > > > > > Sichuan province!"
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > As the Chinese thrive, raking in cash, the Tibetans seem to
>  flounder.
> > > > > > > > > > At the Lhasa night market, all but one of the vendors are
>  Chinese.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Four years ago about 30 percent of us were Tibetan. Now we
>  are the
> > > > > > > > > > only one left," said Ciren Zhuoma, 37, sitting in front of
>  her small
> > > > > > > > > > shop selling Pepsi T-shirts and Budweiser baseball caps. Her
>  voice is
> > > > > > > > > > barely audible above the piercing sound of live Chinese
> > opera nearby.