Re: Tibetans fear $3.2 billion railroad is being built at their expense

"Sutek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> "Guardiangel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
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> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Thomas J Wheat) wrote in message
>  news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Guardiangel) wrote in message
>  news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Thomas J Wheat) wrote in message
>  news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Guardiangel) wrote in message
>  news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Thomas J Wheat) wrote in message
>  news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Guardiangel) wrote in message
>  news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > > > > > Read this article carefully or you will be brainwashed
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Thomas J Wheat) wrote in message
>  news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > > > > > > Tibetans fear $3.2 billion railroad is being built at their
>  expense
> > > > > > > > > Los Angeles Times
> > > > > > > > > http://www.charleston.net/stories/110703/wor_07tibet.shtml
> > > > > > > > > LHASA, TIBET--Beijing's plan to pacify this restive
>  Himalayan province
> > > > > > > > > involves a $3.2 billion railroad that will connect the rest
>  of China
> > > > > > > > > to the frozen Tibetan plateau known as the roof of the
>  world.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The railroad, billed as the world's highest and due to be
>  completed in
> > > > > > > > > 2007, represents the linchpin of China's ambitious "Go West"
>  campaign
> > > > > > > > > to develop and repopulate its impoverished hinterland.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > But Tibetans opposed to Chinese control say the railroad's
> > > > > > > > > construction, which began last year, has so far confirmed
>  their worst
> > > > > > > > > fears: that the train, although it may usher in rapid
>  progress, will
> > > > > > > > > transform Tibet's desolate nomadic culture into a land of
> > > > > > > > > inequalities.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "We went to inquire about railroad jobs but they said it's
>  all been
> > > > > > > > > taken," said Tenzin, a 22-year-old Tibetan farmer from Gansu
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Tibetans opposed to Chinese control"? And now the "reporter"
>  is
> > > > > > > > quoting some word from a person who is from Gansu Province
>  instead of
> > > > > > > > Tibet! Most of the Singaporeans[78%]are ethnic Chinese, but
>  people
> > > > > > > > won't call them "Chinese"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Obviously, it is misleading..
> > > > > > > This still does not obscure the fact that the majority of jobs
>  some
> > > > > > > 85% have gone to Han chinese. Why not hire more tibetans to
>  build the
> > > > > > > railroad. Supposedly its being built for their benefit.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > not a single evidence existed when the ethnic background(i.e.
>  being
> > > > > > Tibetans) is the reason of being rejected to the jobs
> > > > > prove it! You don't think I am going to take you at your word. How
> > > > > could you know? You probably have never been to Tibet let alone be
> > > > > capable of sympathising with Tibetans undergoing occupation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You ask me to prove/show something which doesn't exist? What kind of
> > > > logic is it? Dont waste time, come and prove the existence of such
> > > > "Ethnic-oriented" employment situation.
> > >
> > > the proof is as we americans like to say is in the pudding. Its
> > > blatantly obvious that there is ethnic discrimination. That's why they
> > > have hired a disproportionate number of ethnic chinese to build the
> > > railroad. Also I asked you first. The burden of proof is on you.
> >
> >
> >
> > No offence, but its really ridiculous. I ask you to prove it, it means
> > you need to show us that the unemployment of this Gansy boy is due to
> > his identity of "ethnic Tibetan" instead of his identity of
> > "FARMER"(or something else). It is you who seems claiming that the
> > situation is simply caused by his Ethnic background.
> >
> > If he is a local Tibetan who graduated from univ/vocational
> > school("trained"), I believe everything will be different. Understand
> > my point now?
> You don't understand that ethnic Tibetans don't get a fair chance at getting
> jobs OR employment OR education.


empty talk, the Han people and even the CCP<since the 1950s> authority
in the region are very sensitive on the racial issue[Grunfeld, 'The
Making of Modern Tibey']. You should convince us that, for example ,
the case of this Gansu boy is caused by his ethnic backround instead
of his academic qualification


> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >, formerly
> > > > > > > > > part of Tibet, but now a Chinese province.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > China's control over Kansu predated the existence the first
> > > > > > > > proto-Tibetan state. How come Kansu was "formerly part of
>  Tibet"?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "historical differences and current political realities make
>  the
> > > > > > > > creation of a Greater Tibet extremely improbable, at least
>  initially"
> > > > > > > > --Goldstein, Tibetologist from CWRU, "The Snow Lion and the
>  Dragon"
> > > > > > > >
>  how about a page number for this quote
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >"We've been here four
> > > > > > > > > months and we can't find anything. We're willing to be
>  waiters,
> > > > > > > > > security guards, tour guides, anything. But no one wants
>  us."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The Chinese seem to have an extra edge. That's because
>  education and
> > > > > > > > > the ability to speak Mandarin Chinese are the basic criteria
>  for most
> > > > > > > > > jobs.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Quality Control", no big deal!
> > > > > > > Sounds like han chauvenisim and exclusivisim. AQdmit it you
>  think
> > > > > > > Chinese are better than Tibetans.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > read the original msg you post, the Gansu boy is a FARMER, and
>  we/they
> > > > > > need well-trained/skilled people. Heartfully, I myself won't hire
>  a
> > > > > > FARMER for my house's interior design...
> > > > > I am sure you don't need much training to drive a railroad spike
>  into
> > > > > a rail. You swing a hammer and drive the spike in the rail. You just
> > > > > have to be able to work hard. Also this is just one farmer I am sure
> > > > > thousands of Tibetans could capably do the work. Here again you are
> > > > > showing your racist nature when you say the Tibetans aren't capable
>  of
> > > > > building railroads.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I'm talking about the Gansu "FARMER". Are all Tibetans farmers? You
> > > > tell me.
> > > >
> > >  no but alot of them want to work at building the qinghai railroad.
> >
> >
> >
> > What has the Qinghai railways got to do with the Tibetans? "Greater
> > Tibet" again?
>  It's being used to help screw them over.


HOW? as Thomas Wheat pointed out they want to work at it


> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Needless to say the **railway system**
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Tibetans have fought for preservation of their culture since
>  China
> > > > > > > > > annexed their homeland in 1951.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Since the year of 1914 the Tibetans has clearly reaffirmed
>  their
> > > > > > > > homeland as part of China.
> > > > > > > No china never signed the Simla treaty. They were only witnesses
>  to
> > > > > > > it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Tibetans signed it. I said "THE TIBETANS"
> > > > >  The treaty was null and void because china never signed it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I am talking about the Tibetans' attutude, not the legality of this
> > > > treaty. BTW, both Lochen Shartra and Chen I-Fan signed the 7-point
> > > > "Schedule". And in 1934 they reaffirmed such status.
> > > >
> > >  please cite source for this.
> >
> >
> >
> > M.C. Goldstein's "A History of Modern Tibet"[Univ of Cal. Press] has
> > the FULL texts of both 'Simla Agreement and Schedule of 1914" and the
> > "Ten-Point Statement of 1934".
> >
> > Secondly, although the TibetJustice website claimed their text as
> > "reproduced" from Van Praag's book, I remember that I have seen the
> > Initial of Chen I-Fan on Van Praag's copies of the Simla documents.
> Your memory is good enough for us, or any court in the world.
> <snicker>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > International attention has been drawn
> > > > > > > > > to their independence movement by the Dalai Lama, the exiled
>  spiritual
> > > > > > > > > leader driven from here in 1959 when the Chinese crushed a
>  failed
> > > > > > > > > uprising.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The Dalai Lama has repeatedly spoken out against what he
>  calls a
> > > > > > > > > cultural genocide by Chinese occupiers in Tibet. Beijing
>  considers the
> > > > > > > > > Nobel laureate a separatist bent on breaking up the nation.
>  Chinese
> > > > > > > > > authorities have banned his portrait here.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > But many Tibetans secretly display his image in their homes
>  and pray
> > > > > > > > > to him.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Beijing has tried to squelch the independence movement by
>  pumping in
> > > > > > > > > cash. It poured as much as $1.6 billion into the Tibetan
>  economy last
> > > > > > > > > year alone, which officials say represented the largest
>  investment in
> > > > > > > > > any province.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Tibet's stability is China's stability. Tibet's development
>  is
> > > > > > > > > China's development," said Xiangba Pingcuo, Tibet's
>  governor.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Beijing says the railroad is the economic salvation Tibet
>  needs.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Tibet is the only province without a rail link. The people
>  of Tibet
> > > > > > > > > want development. The railroad is the hope of everybody
>  here," said
> > > > > > > > > Tajie, the deputy mayor of Lhasa.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The Chinese who live here feel they would be the main
>  beneficiaries.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "They're probably building the railroad for us," said Chen
>  Yajun, 32,
> > > > > > > > > a taxi driver from central China's Sichuan province. "It'll
>  be easier
> > > > > > > > > and cheaper to go home."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Some of the train's first passengers will probably be its
>  Chinese
> > > > > > > > > construction workers. Of the 38,000 hired for the job, only
>  6,000 are
> > > > > > > > > Tibetans. The rest were trucked in from inland provinces.
>  Semi-skilled
> > > > > > > > > employees make as much as 11 times more money than manual
>  laborers.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > None of the 2,700 workers who operate heavy equipment or
>  hold
> > > > > > > > > supervisory jobs is Tibetan, according to Huang Difu, an
>  official in
> > > > > > > > > charge of the project.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Among the biggest losers of this lopsided gold rush are
>  Tibetans
> > > > > > > > > hoping for a share of the riches transforming their city.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "I feel sad for Tibet," said Jonu, a 19-year-old Tibetan who
>  came to
> > > > > > > > > pray at the Johkang temple. "So many Chinese are coming."
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Lhasa already has the look and feel of a Chinese city, with
> > > > > > > > > Chinese-style buildings
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Han/Chinese-style building has appeared in Tibet for hundreds
>  of year.
> > > > > > > > For example, the golden roof of the wellknown Potala Palace
>  was
> > > > > > > > designed by the artists sent by the Chinese emperors.
>  Generally,
> > > > > > > > Tibetan customs/culture/arts is historically and heavily
>  influenced by
> > > > > > > > that of the Han Chinese[Norwich, 'Oxford Illustrated
>  Encyclopedia of
> > > > > > > > the Arts',1990]
> > > > > > > You are wrong you are suggesting that there is no Tibetan style
>  only a
> > > > > > > homogenous Han Chinese style.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > who said they should have no Tibetan-style building? If you're
> > > > > > speechless please dont put your non-sense words into my mouth.
>  Han
> > > > > > Culture and Tibetan culture are historically affected by each
> > > > > > other,[e.g. Calendar: Twelve animals...etc]
> > > > > The Tibetan calender is different from the chinese calender. They
>  use
> > > > > different animals.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > what different anumals? Show us with quoted reference/sources.
> > > >
> > > > [I can show you NOW in Tibetan -- Byi, Glang, Stag, Yos, Hbrug, Sprul,
> > > > Rta, Lug, Sprel, Bya, Khyi, Phag]
> > > >
> > > I assume this is the english translation of what you wrote in Tibetan.
> > > rat, ox, tiger, rabbit, dragon, snake, horse, sheep, monkey, bird,
> > > dog, pig,
> > > Also
> > > tibetan new year has a different date then the chinese new year,
> > > Tibetan new year is feburary 21st, chinese new year is january 22.
> > > Obviously they use different dating methods. So their calenders are
> > > different.
> >
> >
> > You seem sidestepping the issue. Please answer me first what's the
> > difference between the "12 Animals" of Han and those of Tibet.
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Also Art historians around the world have
> > > > > identified a unique architectural style that is classically Tibetan
> > > > > and distinct from Chinese.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Art Historians around the world? Quote what they all said to support
> > > > your wild claims. As "Oxford Encyclopedia of the Arts" points out,
> > > > Han/Chinese culture HEAVILY influences that of the Tibetans. It means
> > > > the development of Tibetan arts/culture is hardly independent. Even a
> > > > strong TI supporter was forced to admit:
> > > >
> > > > "We may in fact say that the present civilization of Tibet is taken
> > > > mainly from China and only to a lesser degree from India. The general
> > > > appliances of civilization...have come from China"
> > > > --Charles Bell, 13th DL's chief foreign advisor, "Tibet: Past and
> > > > Present"
> > > a page number would help here.
> >
> >
> > May I ask: the Arts Encyclopedia or Charles Bell's book?
> >
> >
> > > Also it may say that Tibetans may have
> > > utilized chinese technology that doesn't mean that they didn't have a
> > > indigenous style all their own. even you admit Tibet was independant
> > > from 1st century b.c. until the Yuan dynasty. Don't you think they
> > > would have developed their own unique style.
> >
> >
> > Remember the "Tang-Tubo marriages"? In the 630s, when Songtsan Gambo
> > founded the Tubo Kingdom, which was a slavery system, the Tang Dynasty
> > under Emperor Taizong was in its prime. The highly developed politics,
> > economics and culture of the Tang Dynasty exerted heavy influence on
> > countries in the east(and in Europe as well) Songtsan Gambo were
> > strongly interested in Tang, and so took the initiative to strengthen
> > contacts with the China Proper. The Tibetan ruler did his best to
> > absorb advanced production technology and culture from the Han people
> > in the mainland. He sent his ministers to Chang-an on several
> > occasions to seek a marriage with a Tang princess. His effort
> > succeeded in 641 when Princess Wen Cheng, a daughter of Tang Emperor
> > Taizong's family system, was greeted into Tibet. Her dowry included
> > statues of Sakyamuni, the founder of Buddhism, and 360 volumes of
> > Buddhist scriptures and classic works. Legend has it that Emperor
> > Taizong also gave her various religious objects, food, 300 classic
> > texts used for practicing divination and performing a sorcerer's
> > dance, a bronze bowl used as a mirror that could tell good from evil,
> > 60 varieties of books on construction and industrial arts, 100 medical
> > prescriptions for 404 diseases, six types of medical tools, four
> > medical books, and large amounts of silk and clothing. Princess
> > Wencheng carried the statues of Sakyamuni in a horse-drawn carriage,
> > and used mules and horses to transport the other articles. She brought
> > into Tubo large numbers of artisans, varieties of crop seeds, and
> > domesticated animals. Songtsan Gambo made a special trip to the
> > headwaters of the Yellow River to greet the Tang princess. According
> > to The Lineage of the Tubo Kingdom, Princess Wen Cheng, while on her
> > way to Tubo, taught the Tibetans how to reclaim land and grow crops,
> > erect water mills, make ropes from grass, and make sweet foods. When
> > she reached Lhasa, she was given a rousing welcome with all the people
> > taking to the streets to greet her. This knowledgeable Han woman
> > believed in Buddhism. She designed and built the Jokhang and Ramoqe
> > monasteries in places she chose. Her actions won the respect and love
> > of the Tibetans. After the marriage, Songtsan Gambo introduced rice
> > mill, paper and ink making technologies from the Han area. During the
> > period, farm tools and pottery making technology also made their way
> > into Tubo from the Tang China along with textile, metallurgical and
> > building technologies. Today, the broad masses of the Tibetans still
> > spin yarns about how Princess Wencheng taught the Tubo women to weave
> > and embroider. While creating a Tibetan written language, Songtsan
> > Gambo sent children of noble families to study poetry in Chang-an. He
> > also invited Han men of letters to help write his legal codes and
> > official documents. These efforts greatly enhanced Tubo's social
> > productive forces and promoted economic and cultural development.
> >
> > In 704 when Tride Zhotsan came to the throne of the Tubo Kingdom, his
> > grandmother Molu held court and, on many occasions, dispatched
> > officials to Chang'an to seek a marriage between a Tang princess and
> > the Tubo king. Tang Emperor Zhongzong agreed to marry Princess Jin
> > Cheng to Tride Zhotsan in 710. Princess Jin Cheng entered Tubo
> > bringing embroidered silks, books on handicraft making technology,
> > articles of daily use and Qiuzi (present-day Kuche in Xinjiang) music.
> > She also brought into Tubo many artisans and acrobats. In 712, the
> > Tang Emperor Xuanzong was enthroned, ushering in a new period of peace
> > in Tang China. This situation exerted enormous influence on Tubo.
> > During this period, Princess JinCheng, extraordinarily talented as she
> > was, financed monks in Yutian to enter Tubo and built monasteries for
> > them to use in the study and translation of Buddhist scriptures. She
> > introduced famous Han classics from the Tang court, such as The Books
> > of Poetry[Mao Heng's version], Book of Rites, Zuo Zhuang [the famous
> > commentary by Zuo Qiuming on The Spring and Autumn Annals] and
> > Selected Works[a well-known selection noted for essays of elegant
> > style dating from early centuries AD]. The Book of Rites and Tactics
> > of the Warring States were translated into Tibetan. These helped boost
> > social development and economic and cultural prosperity in Tubo.
> >
> > Reciprocally, many aspects of the Tibetan culture were absorbed by the
> > Han. For example, people in Tang China learned to play the traditional
> > ball games of the Tubo people; and Han women learned to do their hair
> > and makeup in the manner of the Tubo women. These two cultures
> > naturally enriched each other.
> Oh that's great. The Han take everything else and are "enriched" by a ball
> game and makeup. Are you on opium?


I said "for example", read what I quoted from Charles Bell


> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > >
> > >  Let me give you an example. The Tibetan Chorten has  a slight
> > > resemblance to a nepali Stupa, and definetly does not resemble a
> > > chinese pagoda. What do you have to say about that.
> >
> >
> > [1]What you say cannot prove that Tibetan culture is independent, as
> > you said it is a "Nepali" style, which seems not exclusive in Tibet.
> > It only shows the architechtural culture of the neibouring state of
> > Nepal has (limited) influence on that of Tibet.
> It WAS independent. No culture develops for long totally independently, but
> will draw from others. That does not prove that it is not independent. Using
> your logic, China is a part of the United States.


I was talking about the relationship between Tang and Tibet, Hav I
ever said that Tibet was part of Nepal or part of Tang-China?



> >
> > [2]And it is not "Slight resemblance", the one of Tibetans is highly
> > identical to what you can see in Nepal, and see [3]
>  SFW?
> >
> > [3]At least...there is also one another Nepali Dagoda in the city of
> > Beijing: namely the "White Dagoba" in Miaoyingsi Temple.
>  They stole that too?


It was designed by Anigo, a Nepali techologist who was invited by the
Yuan emperor in Beijing. In this city alone, the same kind of Pagoda
can be found in West Yellow Temple, ZhenJueSi Temple...etc


> >
> >
> > > Another example is
> > > the Potala palace, it is also built in the Tibetan style.
> >
> >
> > [sigh]
> >
> > You didn't pay attention to what I previously said. Potala palace is a
> > mixture of Han and Tibetan architechtural cultures. See the "Golden
> > roof"?
> Big deal. Some things happen through coincidence. Greek Orthodox church
> roofs resemble Moslem temples, does that mean that the Orthodox religion is
> a part of Islam?

<sigh>
once again, I was talking about the Tang era when Tibetan and
Han/Chinese cultures enriched each other. Mr Wheat and I both agree
that Tang-China and Tibet were two different political entities. No
offence, but you really pay not much attention.



> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Here again your Han Chauvenisim is blurring
> > > > > the distinction between two seperate cultures.
> > > >
> > > >
>  <snip>
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > You are wrong. The modern architecture
> > > > > > > going up in Lhasa is neither classical chinese or Tibetan
> > > > > > > architecture, rather postmodern trash.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As you said it is "postmodern". Tibet seems to be **westernized**
> > > > > > instead of "Sinicized". Sinicization has appeared for hundreds of
>  year
> > > > > By post modern i mean the style of architecture is neither classical
> > > > > chinese or Tibetan, rather a conflagaration of billboards and neon
> > > > > sighns which did by the way originate in the West.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Not sign shows that it is exclusive in China
> > >  can you clarify what you have written here.
> >
> >
> >
> > postmodern buildings appear in many other parts of the world. It's
> > hardly a "Sinicization"[Han-Hua]. Know what I mean now?
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > and Chinese billboards proliferating across
> > > > > > > > > town. More than half the 200,000 residents here are believed
>  to be
> > > > > > > > > Chinese. Even the main boulevard in front of the Dalai
>  Lama's holy
> > > > > > > > > Potala Palace is named Beijing Road.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Beijing control over Tibet[1288-present] predated the
>  existence of the
> > > > > > > > first Dalai Lama, Dge-'dun grub, [1391-1474]
> > > > > > > Wrong it was the mongols who had control at that time not the
>  Chinese.
> > > > > > > When are the chinese going to learn that the Yuan dynasty was a
>  mongol
> > > > > > > foreign control over china.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ignorant. Similar to the Qing rulers, Kubilai Khan claimed himself
>  as
> > > > > > the Emperor of China, he adopted the dynastic name of Yuan (as
>  well as
> > > > > > the Han/Chinese traditional government system) claiming himself
>  the
> > > > > > legitimate ruler following the previous SuiTang/Sung Dynasties.
> > > > > > Everybody regarded "Yuan" as one of the (greatest) 26 dynasties of
> > > > > > China. <Even the official title of Phagspa, Tibet's local ruler,
>  was
> > > > > > "Great Yuan Imperial Tutor>
> > > > > Kublai Khan was a mongol. A mongol from Mongolia (a internationally
> > > > > recognized sovereign independant country)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Inner Mongolia, where most of the Mongols live in, is now part of
> > > > China
> > > >
> > > Yes because of the imperialism of Joseph Stalin inner mongolia is now
> > > part of china.
> >
> > What has it got to do with that bloody late-comer of J. Stalin? Since
> > the imperial era inner mongolia has been already part of China. ROC
> > had formally three provinces in the region until the Japanese Imperial
> > Army invaded North China and establshed the puppet regime of
> > Mengjiang.[literally: Mongol territories]
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > > conquered China in 1288
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 1288? Are you sure?
> > >  oops, 1279.
> >
> >
> > ok, even before 1279 Kubilai Khan had transformed his Mongol Khanate
> > into a Chinese State. An Amercian historian who specify in studying
> > the Yuan China cannnot but admit that:
> >
> > "He[Kubilai] appealed to his Chinese subjects for help in reunifying
> > China under his rule, but he did so within a Chinese context. A few
> > days after issuing his proclmation, he adopted a Chinese reign title,
> > Chung-Tung(Central Rule), like a typical Chinese emperor. In addition,
> > he created government institutions that either resembled or were the
> > same as the tradition Chinese ones.....Khubilai wished to signal to
> > the Chinese that he intended to adopt the trappings and style of a
> > Chinese ruler"
> > -M. Rossabi, 'Kubilai Khan: His Life and Time', Univ of Cal. Press,
> > p56
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > does
> > > > > not mean that China can lay claim to Mongolia on the basis of of
> > > > > Mongol conquest.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > It is ludicrous and faulty logic to suppose that this
> > > > > was a sinicized dynasty.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > How ludicrous/faulty? Manchurian's invasion of China integrated
> > > > Manchria into China. Its called Han assimiliation.
> > > >
> > > The qing dynasty while it lasted was a foreign dynasty. China proper,
> > > Han chinese were subjugated by foreign rulers that had previously
> > > never been under Han control. All of the top Qing bureacrats were
> > > Manchurian. With the fall of the dynasty and the establishment of the
> > > republic then China could lay claim to this area, only because she had
> > > the force of arms and the will to conquer.
> > > Also by the same fact that Mongolia is independant today and has not
> > > been assimilated by the Han.
> >
> >
> > WHAT? It is the "foreigners"(Yuan and Qing Emperors), instead of
> > simply the Han subject, who claimed their state as a Chinese
> > State["China"]. If you can read Chinese, you can try Qing/Manchu
> > Emperor Yongzheng's book "Great Righteousness Resolving Confusion",
> > reads in part:
> >
> > "Since my dynasty took over the Central Plain[i.e. China
> > Proper]...with intergration of the Mongol tribes (into China), the
> > territory of China can now be extended, it is the Great fortune to the
> > Chinese People. (Therefore) Why distinguish between Hua(Chinese) and
> > Yi("Barbarians", i.e. Mongol, Manchu...etc)"
> >
> > Its logically similar to Catherine the Great, a pure-German princess
> > who later  regards/claimed herself as the sovereign of Tzarist
> > Russia("Tzarina"). Catherine's takeover of the Tzarist throne doesnt
> > mean Russia suddenly disappear or "become part of
> > Deutschland/Germany". Everone on this planet knows she was a Russian
> > soveriegn even though she was not ethnic-Russian
> >
> > Has your 'confusion' got 'resolved'? :->
>  Nobody can learn with your perverted logic.


HOW perverted? Please pay attention to what Thomas and I was talking
about before you draw such sophomoric conclusion. If a non-Russian
like Catherine the Great can become a Russian Monarch, why cannot a
non-Han became the Emperor of China? Answer me if you're such familiar
with the logic.


> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > >The mongols may have used the chinese
> > > > > governmental system however that system had the majority of
>  governors
> > > > > and top level administrators were Mongol and not chinese. Chinese
> > > > > bureacrats during the Yuan dynasty were low man on the totem pole.
> > > > > Face it it the Yuan was a period of foreign control over China.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > These elements match the case of Qing dynasty. We all, even in
> > > > international treaties, regards Qing as "China".
> > > The manchus at that time prior to invasion in 1644 were not regarded
> > > as one of the races of chinese.
> >
> >
> >
> > It is the _Manchu_ (also Mongols for "Yuan")who regarded the Qing
> > Empire as the legitimate "Chinese Nation"! For example, in the Treaty
> > of Nerchinsk in 1689, the Manchu voluntarily called their ruler,
> > Kangxi, "The Great Holy Chinese Emperor"[Zhongguo Daxing Huangdi].
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Tibet
> > > > > may have been part of Mongolia at this time not china. China was
>  part
> > > > > of Mongolia at this time.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In the Yuan Dynasty, Monglia, namely "Lingbei(Mountain-North)
> > > > Province", was one of the 11 Provinces, directly ruled by Central
> > > > Government in Dadu/Beijing. It is similar with Qing dynasty. Kubilai
> > > > Khan ruled Mongolia from beijing not from
> > > All of Kublai Khan's bureacrats, at least the top levels were mongols
> > > not chinese.
> >
> >
> > obviously it is wrong. He needed Han people to help him develop the
> > Chinese State of Yuan. See above
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As I've said before, you can be a Chinese["People of China"]
>  without
> > > > > > being a Han. There are Mongol-ruled China, Tibetan-ruled China,
> > > > > > Manchu-ruled China and Han-ruled China thru out the five thousand
> > > > > > years of Chinese history. And the term "China/Chinese/Zhongguo"
>  means
> > > > > > "Central State", hardly a term exclusive for any ethnic groups
> > > > >  the Xia were Huns not Tibetans.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Read more books, the founders of West Xia, the Qiang nationality,
> > > > moved from SW the Tibetan plateau, not the north. There was even no
> > > > "Hun" political entity groups appearing within the area of China.
> > > > "Hun" has became then-Mongols
> > > i found this Xia site on the internet I think you should have a look.
> > > It says that the Xia spoke a proto- Tibetan Burman dialect, a language
> > > called Tangut and that they may be related to Tibetans they were a
> > > seperate nationality  more related to the Qiang.
> > > http://www.uglychinese.org/xixia.htm
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> > I dont think it is accurate using the term "seperate nationality", The
> > local mainland Tibetans(e.g. Lhasa, UsTsang...) of cos, due to the two
> > different historical developments, has (slight) difference with that
> > of the "non-Local Tibetans". Read what it said on the website:
> >
> > "This dwelling place of the Dangxiang people and the Tuyuhun people
> > would be called Frontal Tibet or Outer Tibet in later times"
> >
> > As I've said before even the Tibetan name "Us-Tsang"[mainland Tibet]
> > was derived from the word "Qiang". All these tribes, Qiang, DangXiang,
> > Tibetan, are of one single "ethnic-Tibetan" system/family
> The bottom line is that the Chinese invaded Tibet by force in modern times
> and murdered millions.


As I've told you before since the 90s the exiled Tibetan
leaders,including DL and Ngwawang Jigme, have admitted that this
number is fabricated


> You idiots try to justify it, but nothing in hell can
> do that.


After the Qing/Chinese Empire collapsed the Tibetans signed the 1914
Simla document which reaffirmed Tibet as "part of Chinese
Territory"[Point 1, 'Schedule' of 1914], why Chinese/PLA army cannot
march into *Chinese* Territory afterward(1951)? Is there any pre-War
document which claims Iraq as part of the United States? Why the
Americans invaded Iraq by force?

Get my point now?

> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >  <snip>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Tibet's status has been intertwined with China since the 7th
>  century
> > > > > > through marriages, wars, and treaties. Mongol conquests in the
>  13th
> > > > > > century made Tibet part of a Mongol-ruled Chinese state, and four
> > > > > > centuries later the ethnic Manchu Qing dynasty further
>  incorporated
> > > > > > Tibet into China"
> > > > > > --A. Tom Grunfeld, Tibetologist from SUNY, "Reassessing Tibet
>  Policy",
> > > > > > 2000
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Even Chinese tourists, who come here expecting to see exotic
>  Tibetan
> > > > > > > > > faces and snowcapped mountains, shake their heads in
>  disbelief when
> > > > > > > > > they see the new Lhasa.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "The tour guide told us about 80 percent of the people
>  living here now
> > > > > > > > > are Chinese and most of them are from Sichuan," said Liu
>  Fuyou, 50, a
> > > > > > > > > tourist from the coastal city of Tianjin wearing a straw
>  cowboy hat.
> > > > > > > > > "This is no longer Lhasa city, Tibet province. This is Lhasa
>  city,
> > > > > > > > > Sichuan province!"
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As the Chinese thrive, raking in cash, the Tibetans seem to
>  flounder.
> > > > > > > > > At the Lhasa night market, all but one of the vendors are
>  Chinese.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Four years ago about 30 percent of us were Tibetan. Now we
>  are the
> > > > > > > > > only one left," said Ciren Zhuoma, 37, sitting in front of
>  her small
> > > > > > > > > shop selling Pepsi T-shirts and Budweiser baseball caps. Her
>  voice is
> > > > > > > > > barely audible above the piercing sound of live Chinese
> opera nearby.