Re: Iraqi Family Ties Complicate American Efforts for Change

"John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> "Sarah" <newsgroupsdon'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Iraqi Family Ties Complicate American Efforts for Change
> >
> > By JOHN TIERNEY
> >
> > Published: September 28, 2003
> >
> >
> >
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/28/international/middleeast/28CLAN.html
> >
> > or
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/oyb3
> >
> > ============
> >
> > I really had a laugh when I read this headline. Some of you , may
well
> > recall my messages from last year about how in the end, regardless
of
> > how the Bush rush to war went, the US policy makers and empire
> > building dreamers were bound to fail because they never learned to
> > understand tribal people and kinship systems.
> >
> > American reservations are generally poor and destitute places with
the
> > exception of some of the smaller tribes close to populated area
that
> > have been able to use casino profits to better their positions.
After
> > stealing the wealth of land and resources of tribal people here,
the
> > US Govt. sought to civilize and coporatize them via reservations,
> > housing projects that brought clans of families together, who
would
> > never have lived close by on their own (but that was the cheapest
way
> > to provide utilities), and to enforce BIA drafted constitutions on
> > their governing bodies and citizens.
> >
> > They totally ignored the cultures of the tribes that are based on
a
> > kinship system that greatly expands relationships beyond what
European
> > standards considered family and where the status of an individual
was
> > based on his generosity towards his relatives and his band as
opposed
> > to gaining material wealth for him/herself.
> >
> > Had American citizens not worked so hard to erase the indigenous
> > people of this land from their collective minds (except when they
can
> > use them for sports team mascots or they want to further deplete
the
> > scares resources tribes still own), and had all the brainy folks
in DC
> > considered the reality of what Iraq being a nation of tribes
really
> > implied (instead of simply focusing solely on the idea of their
being
> > Islamic terrorists), they would have seen this one a mile off. I
am
> > not the smartest kid on the block and I saw it.
> >
> > Everyday citizens can be given some slack for allowing what they
want
> > to blind them to reality. Those hired for their brains and
expertise
> > should not.
>
> Do you lefties even believe your own bs??  It's really doubtful to
me. You
> treat other "indigenous peoples" like 6 year-olds in need of an
> understanding Mommy, a role you folks always seem all too happy to
assume
> upon yourselves. So how are you so different from the folks that put
Indians
> on reservations??
>
> There are few thing more phony than leftist that uses this kind of
rhetoric
> to keep people stupid, poverty stricken or divided along
racial/cultural
> lines.
>
> And why so? So you self-appointed Mommy's can teach them how to live
like
> good little savages, apart from the modern western world you so
hate?
>
> Iraqis, as the mideast goes, are fairly intelligent and educated
folks that
> happened to have been under a brutal fascist dictatorship for the
past 30
> years. And Sarah does not need to try and justify his brutality by
> dismissing it as just some kind of quaint "tribal" disorder that
makes it
> all understandable or justifiable (even if true).
>
> Nor should civilized people accept the kind of 7th century barbarism
and
> murder that Osama scum or the Taliban crazies preach. In fact their
version
> of Islam is just modern fascism, the very brutal kind that does not
tolerate
> any dissent.
>
> If you are so enamored or respectful of such noble "indigenous
peoples" -
> like the Taliban or Osama nuts - why don't you go live with them? I
suspect
> they would get your mind right in short order.
>
> BTW... be sure and take head covering ....assuming you want to keep
your
> head that is :)
>

John, I was not talking about Osama, the Taliban, or terrorists, I was
talking about the belief system and heritage of another culture that
does not adapt easily or well to the US ideal of " constitutional
democracy."

I don't demean indigenous cultures just because they are different
than Anglo European culture as you apparently do.  You are the one
making a value judgment, not I.   The tribal kinship systems that
indigenous people of this land lived with (and continue practice
today) were healthy social systems that resulted in care for all, but
do not necessarily work as intended with a government operating with a
US type constitution.

My comments had nothing to do with the Taliban or terrorists, but were
related to the difficulty of imposing a US type democracy and
constitution as the government on a land that has a different culture
and value system.  I am dismayed that in this day and age by  the
refusal of some to understand that not everyone wants to or will adapt
to the culture of the United States.

Oh - and I live on an American Indian reservation.