Re: Resolution on Zionism Tainted U.N.

<<Er, no. Your suggestion to check Israel's entire judicial system 
<<does not constititue evidence in support of your opinion that 
<<Zionism = racism, and is nothing more than a sidedodge. 
<<In short, you have no evidence to back your opinion. That 
<<clear enough for you?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Abstraction of Justice) wrote in message news:<[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]<...
<Don't be ficitious the usenet abounds with Zionists calling for hate
<against Arabs, Muslims, and in particular Arab Muslims. You refuse to
<interpret this as evidence.

Your original response: "if you want evidence look at the
legal system of Israel." That was a sidedodge. Citing the 
opinions of unnamed posters on usenet is another 
sidedodge. The opinions of others who are probably 
more qualified to comment are that Zionism:
"...in its efforts to realize its aims, is inherently a process 
of struggle against the Diaspora, against nature, and 
against political obstacles. This struggle manifests 
itself in different ways, in different period of time, but 
essentially it is one:  It is a struggle for the salvation 
and liberation of the Jewish people." 
- Yisrael Galili, 1947
"... springs from an even deeper motive than Jewish 
suffering. It is rooted in a Jewish spiritual tradition whose 
maintenance and development are for Jews the basis of 
their continued existence as a community."
- Albert Einstein 
"... is nothing more — but also nothing less — than the 
Jewish people's sense of origin and destination in the land 
linked eternally with its name. It is also the instrument 
whereby the Jewish nation seeks an authentic fulfillment of 
itself."
- Chaim Herzog, 1975

The fact is, you have no evidence that Zionism, 
whether General Zionism, or Hibbat Zion, or Chovevei 
Zion, or Political Zionism, or Practical Zionism, or Religious 
Zionism, or Socialist Zionism, or Spiritual Zionism, or 
Synthetic Zionism, or any of their subcategories, 
constitute any form of racism.

<<<<Apparently there are concepts proving too difficult for your 
<<<<mind to grasp, 

<<<Why do you have to be rude? What is your problem?

<<The problem is not mine: it's your in your attempt to address 
<<a subject about which you obviously know very little.

<Your knowledge consists of 'potted facts' straight out of a Zionist
<propagandist text book.

Now who's being rude?

<<If you believe pointing out the fact that your opinions are 
<<not based on facts, and that you have little or no facts, is 
<<"rudeness", you should either acquaint yourself with the 
<<facts of a subject before presuming to address it, ...

<Information comes by way of studying texts, memory and archeological
<data. To call the theory that interprets the data factual is to ignore
<its dubitability.

It's obvious that anyone claiming that the United Nations 
placed limits on Jewish immigration to Palestine prior to 
WWII did not derive his information(sic) "by way of studying 
texts, memory and archeological data".

<<... or else grow a thicker skin. 

<I wonder if you are as rude to other Jews or whether you 
<reserve it for Gentiles.

In the matter of pointing out evasions, falsifications, and lies, 
I tend to be democratic. 
 
<<<<there were no "Palestinians" in 1950, 
<<<<other than those residents of former British mandatory 
<<<<territory of Palestine who were either Israeli citizens, 
<<<<or Jordanian citizens, or Arab refugees. Neither were 
<<<<the majority of Palestinian Arabs who lived in British 
<<<<Palestine descended from "Palestinian" fathers, for the 
<<<<simple reason that the concept of "Palestinians" had not 
<<<<yet been invented. It wasn't until the late 
<<<<1960s/early 1970s that Arabs of former Palestine 
<<<<started becoming known as "Palestinians". Prior
<<<<thereto, they had always referred to themselves 
<<<<as southern Syrians.

<<<How does this change things? So what if they renamed 
<<<themselves. How does this justify the murder of non-Jews in
<<<Palestine/Israel/what-you-will?

<<The justification of murder of non-Jews (presumably, you 
<<have no qualms about murder when the victims are Jews), 
<<is not at issue.

<Why do you assume this? Why do you presume me to desire 
<murder? Are you completely paranoid?

>From your foregoing statement-"How does this justify the 
murder of non-Jews in Palestine/Israel/what-you-will".-
it may be presumed you have no qualms about the murder
of Jews in Israel. FYI, that is Israel. Palestine/Israel never 
existed and does not now exist. 

<<What is at issue is your claim that Zionism
<<is racism, ...

<Not really. You will have to try damned hard to convince me 
<Zionism is racially blind under all schemes for labelling races.

You will have to try a bit harder to convince me that you 
know what you are talking about.

<<... and your claim that the Jews of Israel committed 
<<"terrorist atrocities against UN approved 'peace keepers' 
<<during WWII "when we were busy fighting Hitler".

<1940, Haganah Zionists blew up the S.S. Patria killing almost 300
<Jewish immigrants, the aim was to embarass us. That was a terrorist
<attrocity by any standard of measure and the aim was not to harm Jews
<but the British.
<1942, Zionists blew up the S.S Struma killing 769 Jewish immigrants,
<again blamed on us. This was publicized in the US by American Zionists
<and would have contributed to anti-British sentiment just as we needed
<US support in WW II.

Well, now, we sorta needed support ourselves in early 1942, 
you know, when the Russians torpedoed the Struma. 
7 December 1941 ring any bells with you?

<1944 Stern Gang assassinated Lord Moyne, British Minister for the
<Middle East in Cairo.

<I've taken these examples from the web. Wonderful thing the web.

It's obvious you didn't obtain these "examples" "by way 
of studying texts, memory and archeological data". It's 
also obvious from what sort of websites you got them 
from. And what makes you think the Patria, the Struma, 
and the Moyne assassination which inaugurated the Season 
constitute examples of the Jews of Israel committing, 
in your phrase, "terrorist atrocities against UN approved 
'peace keepers' during WWII "when we were busy fighting 
Hitler"?

The objective of the Patria was to disable the ship and 
prevent the deportation of some 1,500 Jewish refugees 
to either British detention camps on Mauitius or else 
back to Hitler's Europe, from which they had escaped.
The Patria was another refugee ship carrying Jews to 
(what they thought was) safety in British Palestine. 
It was intercepted by the Royal Navy and towed to 
Haifa. Two other refugee ships, the Milus and the 
Pacific, were likewise intercepted en route from Romania, 
towed to Haifa, and the Jews aboard transferred to the 
Patria, then under repairs prior to the deportation; 
with British censorship in effect, the destination 
of the refugees was uncertain. The govt claimed the 
refugees were potential German agents who could 
organize a fifth column and sabotage the war effort. 
The Jewish Agency proposed to obtain authentification 
for the refugees through the Haifa office of immigration 
that they were nothing of the sort. The Brits fell back 
on the White Paper provisions. When it was obvious 
pleadings and resources were exhausted, the decision 
was taken to physically damage the ship so as to 
prolong repairs, delay the depature, and buy more time 
to convince the authorities to let the refugees remain. 

According to Munya Mardor in Hagana: "There was never 
any intent to cause the ship to sink. The British would 
have used this against the Jewish population and show 
it as an act of sabotage against the war effort." Plans 
went forward to attach a small explosive device to the 
ship. "Theoretically the device would have been small 
enough for two harbor employees from the naval detachment 
of the HaPoel to slip into the harbor under the cover 
of night and swim to the ship and drag the device behind 
them. They would have attached it to the aft. To activate 
the bomb they would have to ignite a fuse then climb on 
the quay and swim in the open seas back to the area of 
Bat Galim." On 20th Nov 1940, the govt announced on Kol 
Yerushalayim the govt's intention to ship the refugees 
to a detention camp in one of the British colonies where 
they would remain until the end of the war; even after 
the war, it was emphasized, they would not be allowed 
entrance to Palestine as the country was firmly restricted 
to the Jewish immigration quotas of the White Paper. 
The High Commissioner refused repeated appeals by the 
Jewish population to postpone the deportations, and 
announced that if the peace were not maintained, he 
would declare martial law. The bomb was attached 21st 
November 1940, and detonated. It failed to go off. Plans 
were made for another explosive device.

On 24th Nov, a fourth refugee ship, The Atlantic, was 
escorted into Haifa, with more than 1,700 refugees on 
board. At 9:00 am on 25th November 1940, a member of 
the Refugee Committee set off the bomb; it blew a hole 
of 6 square meters. "That morning, I came to the harbor 
as I do every day. I went to my office of Solel Boneh, 
I stood there with David HaCohen and looked around to 
see what was going on. Then at nine o'clock we heard 
a strong explosion. We watched helplessly as the Patria 
leaned on its side and sank. We immediately ran to the 
edge of the water to participate in the rescue operations." 
Munya Mardor described the resue operations. "All the 
ships blew their whistles and every siren in the city 
sounded the alarm. Boats of every shape and every form 
appeared and began to approach the sinking ship. Arabs, 
Jews, every harbor worker, policemen, British soldiers, 
everyone lent a hand and was busy with the rescue 
operations." Among the witnesses to the sinking was one 
of Lord Moyne's future assassins, then 15 years old. 
"Many refugees swam toward the storehouses and many 
hundreds were rescued by boats. The people were put 
into sheds that were next to the storehouses. A few of 
them even managed to avoid the turmoil of the event and 
disappeared into the city. Dozens of men and women who 
were too shocked by the event were brought to the 
hospital." 

The British estimated 267 refugees aboard the Patria 
were missing. 167 bodies were recovered. Neither the 
Jewish Agency nor the Hagana could establish how many 
people escaped or how many were victims. "There was no 
way we could have known in advance the terrible suffering 
and the pain that was about to be inflicted and the 
terrible price we would have to pay for the experiment 
to change the mind of His Royal Majesty." Among the 
more than 180 people killed was Hans Vanfel, head of 
the refugee committee in Haifa, who had set off the 
explosion. 

"Those were nerve wrecking and soul searching days. 
Every day brought additional bodies from the wreck of 
the Patria. It increased the awesome deed that led to 
the torturous event. It was a terrible loss." Even so, 
MacMillan told a delegation from the Jewish Agency that 
HMG had not changed its mind, and that the survivors 
would be summarily deported to Mauritius. To do so, 
however, the govt had to obtain a seaworthy vessel
(or vessels). By that time two Dutch ships were obtained, 
British public opinion and urgent messages of support 
from the US prevailed. On 5th Dec, the Mandatory govt 
announced neither the survivors of the Patria nor The 
Atlantic would be deported in the view of "special 
dispensations of mercy on the grounds of the horrors 
they had just experienced." 

In short, the Patria was a failed attempt by Jews to 
save Jews from incarcertation in detention camps on 
Mauritius - or worse. It was not any attempt to "embarass 
the British," nor does it suffice as an example of 
"terrorist atrocities against UN approved 'peace 
keepers' during WWII "when we were busy fighting Hitler".

Neither was the torpedoing of the refugee ship the 
Struma by a Russian sub. Maybe you should have 
gone to the Struma site at www.struma.org.

On December 12, 1941, the Struma sailed from Constanza in 
Rumania with 769 immigrants aboard. The vessel, commissioned 
by the New Zionist Organization and the Irgun, was the last to 
leave Europe in wartime. The ship was actually an old cargo 
barge used to carry cattle along the Danube.

The objective was to anchor in Turkey, and from there to 
await certificates for Palestine. The small, unseaworthy ship 
sailed for three days, just making it to Istanbul before the 
engine died. 

The Turkish authorities prevented the disembarkation of the 
passengers for fear that the British would not give them 
certificates and Turkey would be forced to give them refuge. 
The ship remained in Istanbul for 70 days. The British refused 
to grant permission for them to enter Palestine and the Turks 
would not let them repair the engine, disembark or remain in 
Turkey. The only food and water available for the passengers 
was provided by the local Jewish community.

Despite the despairing appeals of the captain that the ship was 
unable to continue on its way, the Turkish authorities sent the 
ship back to the Black Sea on February 23, 1942. On the 
following day a mighty explosion was heard and the ship went 
down. Much later it was determined the ship had been sunk by 
a torpedo from a Russian submarine. Only one passenger, David 
Stoliar, survived and eventually reached Palestine. Among the 
dead were 103 children.

Now how does the sinking of the Struma constitute an 
example of Jewish "terrorist atrocities against UN approved 
'peace keepers' during WWII "when we were busy fighting 
Hitler"?

Ditto the Moyne assassination. That was carried out by 
members of a violent splinter group who never constituted 
more than 200-300 members, and whose activities were 
disavowed by all the mainstream Jewish groups in - 
and out - of Palestine. 

In May 1944, the Jewish Agency and the Hagana had resumed 
their collaboration with the govt and were once again informing 
on Etzel/Lechi members and foiling their operations. Several 
meetings were held with the chiefs of the dissident groups, 
to no avail. On Thursday, 19th Oct 1944, 239 detainees were 
taken from Latroun, handcuffed, and taken by trucks to the 
Wilhelma airfield. Thence they were flown to the Sambel 
detention camp noth of Asmara, capital of Eritrea. Later 
they were transferred to the detention camp at Cathage, 
where they were shorted of food, drinkable water, and the 
nearest medical facility was 600 miles away. The Yishuv's 
reaction to the deportations was underwhelming. The Jewish 
Agency ignored it, the National Council made a brief token 
protest, and Davar editorialized that if the dissident groups 
were unwilling to abandon their separate path, they "should 
not wonder at the fact that the Yishuv is reacting in this 
way." 

On 6th Nov 1944, Lord Moyne was assassinated by Eliyahu Hakim 
and Eliyahu Bet-Zuri of the Lechi. The boys (both were 20) 
were immediately arrested, sentenced to death, and hung 
on 25 March 1945. By then, Lechi's actions had led to the 
Season, or the War Between the Jews. See: 
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/season.html

Again, not an example of Jewish "terrorist atrocities 
against UN approved 'peace keepers' during WWII 
"when we were busy fighting Hitler".

<<<<The majority of Jews in 
<<<<Israel in 1950 were of necessity not descended 
<<<<from Jews who had lived in British Palestine, or 
<<<<in Israel before it became British Palestine, 
<<<<because the majority were refugees from Arab 
<<<<countries or they were European Jews who had 
<<<<survived the death camps.

<<<How many millions? Give some population numbers.

<<Specify. 

<How many millions came from the Arab countries. How many many millions
<came from Europe?

At what time?  

<<<<"Palestine has always constituted a single geographical, 
<<<<political and demographic unit with Greater Syria and 
<<<<Egypt."
<<<<- Abdul Jawad Saleh, Transformation of Palestine, 
<<<<Center for Research and Documentation of Palestinian 
<<<<Society, Birzeit University, Feb 1995

<<<Again one man's rhetoric. Meangingless.

<<Wrong again, in that this "rhetoric" has been expressed by 
<<a number of Arab leaders. 

<Whatever they expressed, I bet it was not his words verbatim.

Yet you swallow bullshit from some website which claims 
Jews sunk the Patria to embarrass the Brits. Such 
discriminating scholarship.

<<Having a brother in a foreign country does not
<<<make you a citizen of that country.

<<Is this an apotheosis of the obvious?

<I wish it was obvious. Many people think citizenship is mystically or
<perhaps metaphysically granted.

<<<This is not a lack of knowledge. This is you insulting me because you
<<<have no answer.

<<Answer to what? I have already corrected your errata on 
<<several occasions, not including your notion that the United
<<Nations was in existence prior to WWII. 

<I have corrected you too. 

On what?

<Provision of corrections has nothing to do
<with an answer to my point. I suggest you snip stuff that is not
<relevant, makes finding the original point tedious.

The original point was your claim that Zionism is racism. 
Which you obviously can't prove, since no one else can 
prove it. The next point was your claim that the Jews 
of Israel committed "terrorist atrocities against UN 
approved 'peace keepers' during WWII "when we were 
busy fighting Hitler". For which you supplied the Patria,
the Struma, and the Moyne assassination, none of which 
were "terrorist atrocities against UN approved 'peace 
keepers' during WWII "when we were busy fighting Hitler".

<You did as I expected and tried to justify or dispute each and every
<example. 

You haven't provided any examples showing Zionism is 
racism, or of Jewish "terrorist atrocities against UN 
approved 'peace keepers' during WWII "when we were busy 
fighting Hitler".

<You are only asking for particulars so we can have a tedious
<exchange of 'facts.' 

No, I was asking you to produce facts in support of your 
claims. Obviously you can't do that, because your claims 
are insupportable. 

<You insult those who do not provide them and
<those who do can expect hundreds of lines of Zionist propaganda. I
<have nothing to gain in such an exchange. Don't bother trying to
<convince me Zionism is god beloved, I may support its ends, but its
<means were murderous and unjustifiable. Whatever Britian did in
<Palestine does not warrant the murders committed against us. 

IOW, I'm not to confuse you with facts. 

Deborah