Re: Resolution on Zionism Tainted U.N.

<<Israel's legal system has nothing to do with whether or not 
<<Zionism constitutes racism, and suggesting a review of it 
<<is nothing but a sidedodge to avoid what you have already 
<<evidenced, which is that you have no evidence that Zionism 
<<is racism, because none exists.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Abstraction of Justice) wrote in message news:<[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]<...
<'There is no evidence that...' is a politican's predicate which means
<'I will not consider....'

Er, no. Your suggestion to check Israel's entire judicial system 
does not constititue evidence in support of your opinion that 
Zionism = racism, and is nothing more than a sidedodge. 
In short, you have no evidence to back your opinion. That 
clear enough for you?

<<Apparently there are concepts proving too difficult for your 
<<mind to grasp, 

<Why do you have to be rude? What is your problem?

The problem is not mine: it's your in your attempt to address 
a subject about which you obviously know very little.

<<one of them being that the United Nations 
<<did not exist prior to WWII, and that neither it nor its 
<<predecessor body ever placed limits on the quota of Jews 
<<in British Palestine. Other facts and concepts you have 
<<not grasped are:

<Yet more rudeness.

If you believe pointing out the fact that your opinions are 
not based on facts, and that you have little or no facts, is 
"rudeness", you should either acquaint yourself with the 
facts of a subject before presuming to address it, or else
grow a thicker skin. 

<<there were no "Palestinians" in 1950, 
<<other than those residents of former British mandatory 
<<territory of Palestine who were either Israeli citizens, 
<<or Jordanian citizens, or Arab refugees. Neither were 
<<the majority of Palestinian Arabs who lived in British 
<<Palestine descended from "Palestinian" fathers, for the 
<<simple reason that the concept of "Palestinians" had not 
<<yet been invented. It wasn't until the late 
<<1960s/early 1970s that Arabs of former Palestine 
<<started becoming known as "Palestinians". Prior
<<thereto, they had always referred to themselves 
<<as southern Syrians.

<How does this change things? So what if they renamed 
<themselves. How does this justify the murder of non-Jews in
<Palestine/Israel/what-you-will?

The justification of murder of non-Jews (presumably, you 
have no qualms about murder when the victims are Jews), 
is not at issue. What is at issue is your claim that Zionism
is racism, and your claim that the Jews of Israel committed 
"terrorist atrocities against UN approved 'peace keepers' 
during WWII "when we were busy fighting Hitler".

<<The majority of Jews in 
<<Israel in 1950 were of necessity not descended 
<<from Jews who had lived in British Palestine, or 
<<in Israel before it became British Palestine, 
<<because the majority were refugees from Arab 
<<countries or they were European Jews who had 
<<survived the death camps.

<How many millions? Give some population numbers.

Specify. 

<<"We Palestinian Jews wore the uniform of the British 
<<Army, and on our shoulder epaulettes the single word, 
<<"Palestine" in English. So we fought the war as 
<<Palestinians, set up the Jewish Brigade as Palestinians, 
<<and I'll be damned if I agree that only Arafat and 
<<his assassins are Palestinians."
<<- Joe Criden, NY Times, 1975

<One man's rhetoric. Meaningless.

In fact, Jews of Palestine during WWII were generally known 
as Palestinians, while Arabs of Palestine, during and prior to 
WWII, identified themselves as southern Syrians.

<<"Palestine has always constituted a single geographical, 
<<political and demographic unit with Greater Syria and 
<<Egypt."
<<- Abdul Jawad Saleh, Transformation of Palestine, 
<<Center for Research and Documentation of Palestinian 
<<Society, Birzeit University, Feb 1995

<Again one man's rhetoric. Meangingless.

Wrong again, in that this "rhetoric" has been expressed by 
a number of Arab leaders. 

<<<<The fact is, the population of western Palestine in the last
decades
<<<<of the 19thC had been severely reduced. With the advent of Jews 
<<<<and the various Jewish enterprises under the Zionists, immigration
<<<<rates for both Jews AND Arabs rose dramatically. But there was 
<<<<never a time when there were no Jews resident in Israel at any
time
<<<<in the last 3,200 years.

<I never said there were no Jews. How does this change things?

<<<Yes there were always a few Jews. So what?

<<Presumably a 3,200 residency in a land might constitute a greater
<<attachment to that land than an invented notion of only a few 
<<decades.

<No it means nothing. Having a brother in a foreign country does not
<make you a citizen of that country.

Is this an apotheosis of the obvious?

<<<<<It is universally accepted that if your forefathers are
<<<<<born in a state and you have grown up with them in that same
state,
<<<<<you have no citizenship in the state from which your forefathers
<<<<<originated.

<<<<British Palestine was not a state; it was a mandated
<<<<territory, the same as the mandated territories of 
<<<<Lebanon, Syria, Mesopotamia, Tanganyika, Togoland, 
<<<<Cameroon (British and French), Ruanda-Urundi, South 
<<<<West Africa, German Samoa, New Guinea, and Nauru.

<<<That does not help your cause.
<<Displaying your lack of knowledge on the subject you 
<<are attempting to addess does not exactly help your 
<<"cause", whatever that may be.

<This is not a lack of knowledge. This is you insulting me because you
<have no answer.

Answer to what? I have already corrected your errata on 
several occasions, not including your notion that the United
Nations was in existence prior to WWII. 

<<<<What specific acts of "terrorist atrocities against
<<<<UN approved 'peace keepers' did Jews commit during
<<<<WWII "when we were busy fighting Hitler?

<<<The list above admittedly details crimes after 1945, but that is a
<<<moot point. If you really want to quibble I will paste some other
<<<links. That may seem lazy of me, but I am not a research historian,
it
<<<is not by career.

<<The issue is your claim that the Jews of Israel committed 
<<"terrorist atrocities against UN approved 'peace keepers':
<<SPECIFICALLY during WWII "when we were busy fighting 
<<Hitler". Once again, what specific acts of "terrorist atrocities 
<<against UN approved 'peace keepers'" did Jews commit during
<<WWII "when we were busy fighting Hitler"?

<If you cant answer without insulting me don't bother.

There is nothing in the above request that you provide a 
few facts to support your opinion which constitutes any 
form of insult. As above, either acquaint yourself with 
the facts of a subject before you presume to address it, 
or else grow a thicker skin so that you're feelings won't 
get hurt when you make obvious your  lack of knowledge 
on that subject. 

<Chronology: Palestine 1946-48
<By Simon Motz

One might say that this is merely "one man's rhetoric - meaningless."
Suffice to say that a list of  Palestinian Jewish actions during 
1946-1948 cut and pasted from a UK online tabloid (you 
neglected to reference your source as TimesOnline at 
www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,690-5823,00.html) does 
nothing to support your claim your claim that the Jews of 
Israel committed "terrorist atrocities against UN approved 
'peace keepers' during WWII "when we were busy fighting 
Hitler". Why this 1946-1948 "chronology" does not support 
your claim of Jewish "atrocities" during WWII should be 
obvious. 

<1946
<May 1: Both Arabs and Jews are offended by an Anglo-American plan to
<partition Palestine between Arabs and Jews, which recommends that the
<present British Mandate should continue "until Arab-Jewish hostility
<disappears".


Anglo-American Committee of inquiry's Report, published 
20 April 1946, was accepted by Jews in Palestine, rejected 
by Arabs. Actual terms of Recommendation No. 4: 

Recommendation No. 4. We have reached the conclusion that the
hostility between Jews and Arabs and, in particular, the determination
of each to achieve domination, if necessary by violence. make it
almost certain that, now and for some time to come, any attempt to
establish either an independent Palestinian State or independent
Palestinian States would result in civil strife such as might threaten
the peace of the world.
We therefore recommend that, until this hostility disappears, the
Government of Palestine be continued as at present under mandate
pending the execution of a trusteeship agreement under the United
Nations.
Comment 
We recognize that in view of the powerful forces both Arab and Jewish,
operating from outside Palestine, the task of Great Britain, as
Mandatory, has not been easy. The Peel Commission declared in 1937
that the Mandate was unworkable, and the Permanent Mandates Commission
of the League of Nations thereupon pointed out that it became almost
unworkable once it was publicly declared to be so by such a body. Two
years later the British Government, having come to the conclusion that
the alternative of partition proposed by the Peel Commission was also
unworkable, announced their intention of taking steps to terminate the
Mandate by the establishment of an independent Palestine State. Our
recommendations are based on what we believe at this stage to be as
fair a measure of justice to all as we can find in view of what has
gone before and of all that has been done. We recognize that they are
not in accord with the claims of either party, and furthermore that
they involve a departure from the recent policy of the Mandatory. We
recognize that, if they are adopted, they will involve a long period
of trusteeship, which will mean a very heavy burden for any single
Government to undertake, a burden which would be lightened if the
difficulties were appreciated and the Trustee had the support of other
members of the United Nations.
- http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/anglo/angch01.htm

Full text of Anglo-American Committee of inquiry
Report to the United States Government and His Majesty's Government in
the United Kingdom, Lausanne, Switzerland,
April 20, 1946:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/anglo/angtoc.htm

<July 22: Irgun, Jewish hardliners, launch a successful bomb attack on
<the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, the HQ of the British Palestine
<Army Command.

Left out a bit of detail, didn't we? such as the govt declaration
of the cessation of all Jewish immigration to Palestine, seizure
of immigrant ships and incarceration of passengers, largest 
search and seizure operation in Palestine against Jews, not to 
mention continued enforcement of White Paper provisions.
In any case, martial law was declared 29th June 1946 following
the Night of the Bridges (2 British casualties, 14 Jewish 
casualties).

<August 11: British clampdown on Jewish immigration by blockading port
<of Haifa.

Wrong. Cessation of all Jewish immigration to Palestine 
per the White Paper commenced October 1945.

<October 4: US President Harry Truman urges Britain to admit more Jews
<and create viable Jewish state in an "adequate" area of Palestine.

Wrong. Truman requested Attlee to admit 100,000 Jewish 
survivors of the death camps as a humanitarian gesture, 
irrespective of the White Paper quotas, by letter dated 
31 August 1945 - not 4 October 1946 [excerpt]:
"It appears that the available certificates for immigration to
Palestine will be exhausted in the near future. It is suggested that
the granting of an additional 100,000 of such certificates would
contribute greatly to a sound solution for the future of Jews still in
Germany and Austria, and for other Jewish refugees who do not wish to
remain where they are or who for understandable reasons do not desire
to return to their countries of origin.
"On the basis of this and other information which has come to me I
concur in the belief that no other single matter is so important for
those who have known the horrors of concentration camps for over a
decade as is the future of immigration possibilities into Palestine.
"The number of such persons who wish immigration to Palestine or who
would qualify for admission there is, unfortunately, no longer as
large as it was before the Nazis began their extermination program."
- Truman to Attlee, 31 August 1945

<November 17: Jewish terrorists kill eight British troops in Jerusalem
<as part of intensified shooting and bombing campaign.

In 1946? Bullshit.

<1947

FYI, selective incidents from 1947, like incidents from 1946, 
do not support your claim that the Jews of Israel committed 
"terrorist atrocities against UN approved 'peace keepers' during 
WWII "when we were busy fighting Hitler". Guess why.

<January 31: British families and ?non-essential civilians' are
<evacuated from Palestine.

Wrong again. Evacuation of civilian personnel commenced 
January 1948 preparatory to the termination of the Mandate.

<March 2: British declare Martial Law in five Jewish areas, including
<Tel Aviv.

Wrong again. Martial law was declared in June 1946 
following the Night of the Bridges. And wrong in that
this is not a Jewish "terrorist atrocities against UN 
approved 'peace keepers' during WWII "when we were 
busy fighting Hitler".

<April 24: Stern Gang blow up a British police barracks at Sarona,
east
<of Tel Aviv.

Bologna. Lehi (Stern) rarely, if ever, attacked British military 
installations. 

<May 4: Irgun blow up the British jail in Acre; 251 Jewish and Arab
<prisoners are freed.

Wrong again. Etzel (Irgun) never blew up the Acre prison, 
then the strongest prison in the Empire; that would have been 
an impossibilty. The only explosion was one wall to facilitate 
the escape. 182 Arab prisoners managed to escape. Of the 
163 Jewish prisoners incarcerated in Acre, 41 managed to 
escape; the Brits killed 14, so the total Jewish escapees was 
27.

<July 18: The Exodus, a converted troopship, 

The Exodus - fka the President Warfield - was a Chesapeake 
Bay steamer designated for scrap when Hagana purchased it.

<arrives in Haifa with its
<cargo of nearly 5,000 European Jews. The 1½ hour-long fight with
<British naval ratings, who wish to stop the immigrants from
<disembarking, leaves three Jews dead and 22 seriously injured.

And the survivors were immediately transferred to British 
prison ships and transported to converted death camps in 
Germany, where they remained until after Israel's War of 
Independence. This is an example of Jewish terrorism?

<July 31: Jewish terrorists kidnap two British soldiers and hang them
<as "spies".

Correct. The two young sergeants were hung in retaliation for 
the executions of three Etzelniks. They had been kept in a pit
in Netanya, then Gidi Paglin had them hung. The bodies were 
displayed in a nearby orange grove, with a bomb set underneath, 
and Hagana notified the Brits of the disposition. Etzel was 
condemned by Jews as well as by everyone else.  

<August 5: 35 Zionist leaders are detained for terrorist activities.

And these alleged "35 Zionist leaders detained for terrorist
activities"
on 5 August 1947 were ..... ?

<September 26: Colonial Secretary, Arthur Creech-Jones, announces to
<the UN General Assembly that Britain has decided to get out of
<Palestine in the near future.

Wrong. On 26th Sept 1947, the Brits were still awaiting the 
UN vote on the UNSCOP recommendations, which had been
published 1st September 1947. Again, not a Jewish terrorist
action. 

<November 30: UN votes to partition Palestine between the Jews and the
<Arabs and create a separate regime for the city of Jerusalem. Jewish
<leaders are jubilant; the enraged Arabs call for a "crusade against
<the Jews".

How is the 1947 UN partition vote a example of Jewish 
"terrorist atrocities against UN approved 'peace keepers' 
during WWII "when we were busy fighting Hitler"? In 
any case, the partition vote was 27th November 1947. 
On 30th November 1947, Arabs had begun massacring 
the Jews of Palestine; during the period 30 November 
1947 to 1 February 1948, Jewish casualty figures
totaled 1,106. In March 1948, Arab terrorists killed 271 
Jews alone.

<December 7: Arabs and Jews "call up" young men to fight.

How is this any Jewish "terrorist atrocities against UN 
approved 'peace keepers' during WWII "when we were 
busy fighting Hitler"?

<1948

See comment to 1947 regarding Jewish "terrorist atrocities 
against UN approved 'peace keepers' during WWII "when 
we were busy fighting Hitler".

<January 9: British and Haganah jointly repel 600 Arabs who have
<crossed over the Syrian border to attack Jewish settlements.

Balls. By December 19, 1947, Jewish casualties of Arab 
terrorism far outnumbered Arab casualties, and it was the 
opinion of both Whitehall and Washington that the Jews 
of Palestine would not survive Arab terrorism long enough 
to declare a state.

<January 16: Bombs in Jerusalem and Haifa mark an escalation of
<Arab-Jewish violence. In six weeks the death toll is: 1,069 Arabs,
769
<Jews, 123 British, 23 others.

According to whom?

<March 11: Offices of the Jewish Agency are blown up in Jerusalem.

Not an example of Jewish "terrorist activity", either 
after or before WWII or during WWII. 

<March 22: Jews blow up the Arab quarter in Haifa. Fighting continues
<until the Jews take the port a month later. British artillery pounds
<Arab positions in the hills of Har Tuv, 20 miles west of Jerusalem.
<April 29: Jewish leaders agree to halt their five-day attack on the
<port of Jaffa after the British Army threatens to drive them out.
<May 5: Ben-Gurion chairs a meeting of a provisional Jewish government
<of Palestine.

All bullshit. 

<May 14: David Ben-Gurion proclaims the State of Israel, eight hours
<before the British Mandate in Palestine is due to end. US President
<Harry Truman immediately announces American recognition of the
Israeli
<Provisional Government. The Union Jack is lowered in Jerusalem as the
<British High Commissioner, General Sir Alan Cunningham, sails from
<Haifa. Sporadic fighting breaks out as Jews and Arabs move to
<consolidate their strategic positions.

Not an example of Jewish terrorism during WWII - or after.

<June 1: Israel and the seven states of the Arab League agree to a UN
<request for a month's truce.
<July 9: Egypt and Iraq attack Jewish positions as the truce ends.
<July 17: A new truce is agreed.
<August 15: Two Jewish soldiers are killed in fierce fighting in
<Jerusalem.

More examples of Jewish terrorism?

<August  29: Special Branch and MI5 in London uncover an explosive
<cache, believed to belong to the Irgun.
<September 17: UN mediator, Count Folke Bernadotte, dies in a gun
<attack on his car by Jewish terrorists.
<September 20: Stern Gang terror group is outlawed.

At last! An example of Jewish terrorism! Unfortunately, 
it is not an example of Jewish terrorist activitiy during 
WWII "when we were fighting Hitler."

In fact, none of this errata is evidence for your claim that 
the Jews of Israel committed "terrorist atrocities against 
UN approved 'peace keepers' during WWII "when we 
were busy fighting Hitler".

Care to try again, or would you prefer to show a little 
honesty and admit you haven't a clue what you are 
talking about?

Deborah