Re: Kids should work !!!

"Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 16:36:54 GMT, "bobb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> bobb once again demonstrates his intellectual limitations, as well as
> his connection to reality............
>
> Here we are having a discussion about children and work, with bobb
> seeming to make claims that "kids today"...etc, etc etc.
> >
> >"Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> "bobb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> >> > "Greg Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stan J. Lefosi) wrote in message
> >> >  news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> >> > > > Kids should do more work! They are only playing around,
> >> > > > they are lazy, but they could earn money.
> >> > > > So kids should work !
> >> > >
> >> > > Might solve problems with obesity and poor health
> >> > > as well as give them more pride, ambition and making
> >> > > them better able to handle bigger responsibilities.
> >> > >
> >> > > Families have actually had to fight to keep the right
> >> > > for kids to help in the family business, whether it's
> >> > > a retail store, farming, etc.
> >> > >
> >> > > Many Social Worker types seem to want kids so
> >> > > extremely protected I think this gives kids
> >> > > "sheltered lives", a naivety about the nature of
> >> > > real work.
> >> >
> >> > Actually, you are treading on a hot issue.. issues that Americans
> do not
> >> > fully understand or appreciate.
> >>
> >> Social workers are not against children working. As I pointed out
> >> caseworkers are thrilled if a child on their caseload can get a
> job.
> >> Often they help them do so. The child may be the only one in the
> >> family actually working.
>
> Why not respond to this bobb? Nothing to say?
>
> >>
> >> > Those so called 'sweat shops' in other countries are a way of
> life... it
> >is
> >> > their culture.
> >>
> >> Is it our culture?
> >
> >It is not our culture.. and that is the point.  We should not be
> telling
> >other people how to live or how to raise their children.
>
> My response was a counter to your contention that OUR children aren't
> doing what they should be asked to do, not whether or not we should be
> involved in other countries.
>
> You so rarely answer to the question put why should I be surprized
> when you are consistent?
>
> >>
> >> > Like it or not our early farming ancestors were not so much
> >> > different.
> >>
> >> Have not times changed?
> >>
> >> Should we put children to the plow because our early ancestors did?
> >
> >Hmmm... the US Army just phased out KP duties for newrecruits..  and
> what a
> >howl there has been calling it an injustice to those who served their
> week
> >of service in earlier days.
>
> What I'm noticing is that both basic training and advanced training
> have all been shortened. I hardly think that for a young kid going to
> Iraq KP duties are going to teach them how to stay alive and fight a
> war like the one underway.
>
> Were it peacetime I might consider your bullshit a bit more. But in an
> increasingly technological war interfacing with a guerilla war I'd
> prefer the time be spent in training the troops more effectively.
>
> >But to answer your questions.. times have
> >changed.. we don't have the plow any longer but their are house-hold
> chores
> >that should be done by children instead of taking them to the mall or
> soccer
> >practice.
>
> What makes you think kids don't still do chores? I find it rare to
> meet a family that doesn't have chores for the kids. And expectations
> for doing schoolwork and all the same things we had to do as kids.
>
> And when I was a kid, and that was before you were one, trust me on
> that, there were kids that didn't do chores, and were lazy bums just
> like now. You can't prove that kids today are worse than kids when I
> was one, because I know better.
>
> The reform schools were full of bad kids. There were kids that smoked
> and drank, vast numbers of them, and stole, and got girls pregnant,
> etc. It was just better covered up then. I know, I was a kid then and
> we knew what was going on.
>
> >>
> >> > They intended to have a lot of kids just to help out on the
> >> > farm... and from a young age they all performed hard work for
> long
> >hours.
> >>
> >> How young? I find no support for this notion and some against.
> >
> >Ask a few farm boys.. they worked at job in line with the
> abilities...  as
> >young as preschool.
>
> Yes, and they are still doing it. So what does that prove about your
> nonsense claims of kids have all gone bad and lazy?
>
> Juvenile crime has been dropping for years. Teen pregnancy is down and
> been going down for some time.
>
> All in all teens are very like the nuts we were when we were kids.
> It's a function of being a teen to offend the adults, and they do it
> very well indeed, but underneath they haven't changed a bit. They want
> what we wanted.
> >>
> >> > Work that was much harder and dangereous than merely sewing
> shirts or
> >shoes
> >> > together.
> >>
> >> Yes, many a child died as a result. People still do stupid things
> with
> >> their children that get them killed. Once it may have constituted
> some
> >> necessity but today I do not see such necessity, do you?
> >
> >We are overly-protective.  We even have laws to protect us from
> ourselves.
> >Now isn't that too stupid?
>
> Well, you are too stupid. Those aren't to protect us from ourselves.
> Those are to protect society from the effects of our doing things to
> ourselves. So far as I've heard this society isn't ready to leave the
> victims of self induced injury dying at the side of the road.
>
> For one thing, what isn't harmful today, can turn, over time, into
> something very harmful and expensive. I'm watching the Dutch
> experiment with supporting those that do drugs to the point of
> becoming a burden on society.
>
> I'm anti War on Drugs, but my alternative is not a popular one. To me
> a real war would be to allow those that want to kill themselves with
> drugs all the drugs they want....in confinement. For life. What they
> have left.
>
> But then I'm a meaner bugger than you ever were, but I have some
> brains and knowledge you lack.
>
> >>
> >> > It's just another example of people, in this case, Americans, who
> want
> >to
> >> > impose their values on others.
> >>
> >> I would like to see other peoples live more like we do. They seem
> to
> >> agree with me. Odd, idnit?
> >
> >Nope... and as you will see in Iraq.. they do not have a work ethic
> and they
> >don't understand our way of life.
>
> What a crock of shit. Iraqi's have no work ethic? I defy you to go
> find some Iraqi immigrants, even exiles, and tell them that.
>
> Iraq was once the most modern nation in the middle east. Great
> highways, buildings, vast farms, and modern industries. And Iraqi's
> had and still have a very strong work ethic.
>
> Where do you get this nonsense?
>
> >The generals do not understand the
> >middle-eastern mentality.
>
> What "middle-eastern mentality" would that be?
>
> >The newly appointed governing council doesn't
> >even show up for meetings.
>
> R R R R ... and we do sooooo much better. Ever attended your state
> legislature while in session? Counted the empty seats during debate?
>
> You are a record for stupidity on this ng.
>
> >The do not recognize dead-lines or
> >responsibility.
>
> Give us a few examples.

What kind of examples?  As the generals are discovering there is a lack of
interest and an almost complete disassociation by the so-called 'general
council'.  It's been my experience a planned meeting for today may not occur
for two or three days hence... and then without any preparation.. and then
being unable to make a decision.

Even in factories young kids do most of the work... and on a schedule they
decide.  At the government level they defer... and perhaps prefer a
dictatorship for few wish to assume responsibility.  Wherein we, in the
developed countries must deal with a 10% of the population who are losers,
the middles east has about 10% who are winners. Times are changing in that
part of the world but by all popular criteria most are poor, uneducated, and
hold ideals and moral values much different than the rest of the world. This
not an indictment.. just the way it is.




>
> How many of our bureaucrates fail to meet deadlines? Even paid
> contractors of huge and expensive public and private works FAIL TO
> MEET DEADLINES.
>
> You are a thoroughgoing bigot of the worst sort. Self deceiving piece
> of shit is what you are.
>
> >Within family life, they depend on children to do most of
> >the work.
>
> You are referring to ALL families where there is abject poverty.
> Everyone works. And our media, of course, focuses on the child labor.
>
> >Early retirement for adults depends the number of children and
> >the age they can begin to support the family.
>
> All your Iraqi friends can attest to this claim? Please have them sign
> on and give us some messages.
>
> I think you might find some disturbing conter arguments here:
>
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22work+ethic%22&btnG=Google+Search&meta=group%3Dsoc.culture.iraq
>
>
> >I spent considerable time in
> >the middle east and that was my experience.   Who says our way of
> life is
> >better than others?
>
> Well, you just did. Otherwise why would you claim they lack a work
> ethic and work their children so they can retire early.

Nope.. I didn't say which was better. Just pointed out the differeneces.

>
> As for your experience: I'd like to know what segment of Iraqi society
> you entered and interacted with.
>
> I've been all over the world and your description fits poverty ridden
> segments of all societies, including our own.

Well.. let's put it this way.. I did get around from the highest levels to
the lowest. Poverty is a relative definition.  I had a freind from W.
Virgina once tell me  he didn't know he was poor until he traveled to
Detroit.

>
> Given your record for blind bias exhibited here in these ngs I'd bet
> that you failed to see anything but what you wanted to see in the
> middle-east.
>
> You remind me of the english emperialists and their view of the
> "natives" they were "helping." Instead of learning the local language
> they would simply shout in english when not understand by the natives,
> and declare them savage and stupid.
>
> But then you've already proven you are a bigot in other posts.
> >>
> >> > Not so different than does CPS and other
> >> > state agencies.
> >>
> >> You have worked for state agencies and know this for a fact? I
> >> hobnobbed with state workers for many years and their values are
> very
> >> like yours. They want children to have experience working when it
> is
> >> appropriate. And by 14 or 15 it is. The trouble is getting them,
> the
> >> child, to want to work, given the examples they have had with their
> >> drug suckin' gang bangin' parents.
> >
> >Yes, I've worked for governement agencies and in different countries.
>  What
> >one comes to recognize is the mentality found in other areas of this
> great
> >world.  Much different than ours.
>
> Oh, you are one of those who think they are all "bloody WOGs" eh?
>
> On the contrary. I find much that is similar. Very little that is
> different and I'm not fooled by the surface differences. The man in
> the turban is as ambitious for his children as I. The women scrubbing
> clothes on a rock in the river dreams of a washing machine, just like
> my wife dreams of a new dishwasher.

Let's put it this way.. I doubt the women washing clothes on rock.. which
many still do... even know about the existance of washing machines or
dishwashers.

A small 'resturant' I once ate at... rinsed my bowl in a nearby dranage
ditch where naked kids were playing and camels were drinking.


>
> Most people want the kind of life we have generally. They wanted it
> before they knew we Americans had it. We wanted it before we had it.
> We got it. So can they. Nation after nation has proven they can.

No so... 30 years since the British was tossed out of africa there are
nations that have yet to attain the same standard of living or enginering
resources.

Even in the U.K. they have yet to understand the advantages of storm
windows... and the french do without air conditioning. Many of the homes are
still unheated... and  central heating systems are still largly unknown.
There are comforts we take for granted and I'm not so sure they want the
kind of life we live... or perhaps they can't afford to.  Electric failures
in many parts of the world are commonplace.. and expected.  Telephones
systems, before cell phone, barely worked.  It's no wonder that most of the
world's cell phone business is in Europe.  Ah yes, travel to the tourist
areas and live in 5 star hotels and one comes away with a much different
view.


>
> Your propensity to focus on the differences is the hallmark of the
> bigotted mind.

Is it wrong to be a bigot?  I am to  intolerant to those who want to disrupt
my life.  I perfer to associate with those who speak my language, share my
ideals and moral values.  I tire of people telling me I must accept
'diveristy'.  To do so means I must accept 'honor killings' that occur in
the middle east, arranged marriages, etc.  Perhaps I should forgo christian
values and adopt Islam and my way of life.  It might be easy to become a
slacker, run around making babies, and adandon familes who then  must live
off the government.  Gee.. I might even enter into  a gay marriage and adopt
kids to I can brainwash and raise them in an enviorment contrary to normal
family values.  On the other hand... those who do not agree with me ..and
their refusal, and intolerance,  to adopt tradiation values and customs is
just as bigoted.  Depends what kinda fence you want to stand in front of.

The United States is should remain  American... not french.. not black
african... not mexican.. or even candian.  For too long we've bent rule and
laws that apply to ethnic groups... and allowed too many misfits into our
country.  The hell with diveristy..close the borders and sent illegals back
to where they came.




>
> >As for as drug suckin' gang bangin'
> >parents.. that, too, is a mentality.. an adopted way of life.
>
> Not too the point.
>
> >>
> >> There are whole industries trying to get the kids to that place.
> The
> >> do okay, but it's very hard work.
> >>
> >> > Today, we have adopted work rules for kids...  for better or for
> worse..
> >but
> >> > the end result has been a loss of the work ethic, pride of
> >accomplishment,
> >> > and skill development... and responsibility.
> >>
> >> Work rules create "a loss of work ethic, pride of accomplishment,
> and
> >> skill development... and responsibility" how?
> >>
> >> They don't stop a child from working.
> >>
> >> I worked as a child. I swept floors in businesses when I was 7 and
> 8
> >> (got started after I got caught with a candy bar not my own...and
> had
> >> to work it off...the druggist liked my work...r r r r) and
> continued
> >> all through my teen years. I was never out of work by other than my
> >> own choice when I went back to school, my entire working life. And
> >> that is a very very long time now. Over 50 years.
> >>
> >> I was not allowed to work to the point it interferred with my
> school
> >> work, or even my play time. I had a ball. I also owned a custom 46
> >> Ford business coupe by the time I was 17. All my own money bought
> it.
> >> Talk about play...r r r .
> >>
> >> I made my first earned money bank deposit at the age of 7. Part of
> >> that money, 10 years later, bought my Ford. Kids still do such
> things
> >> without having to endanger themselves or cut short their education.
> >
> >Sounds like your parents didn't rush out to buy you designer jeans..
> or
> >'sneakers' with a show offer trade mark, either.
>
> If they had had the money they would have. In fact they did buy me
> things they could afford. But then that was true for almost all the
> children I knew.
>
> The sneakers and jeans of today were the Keds, Schwinn, and Levi's of
> our day.
>
> Jeans were what girls wore. I didn't know "Levi" was a brand name only
> until I was about 12. All dark blue denim pants with copper rivets at
> the strain points were "Levi's."
>
> So we were JUST as much into brand names .. and they cost the
> equivalent of todays designer jeans....as kids of today. My parents
> once made me wear "cords" to school....arrrrggggghhhh. I dumped them
> in the trash after school and came home in my gym shorts claiming they
> have been stolen from the locker room because I had left them out
> while suited up for gym.
>
> >Today, if a child was
> >found even sweeping floors the parents would be called into
> question...
> >probably by CPS...and certainly the neighbors... as would the
> 'employer'.
>
> You are so full of shit. Show me the reports. Show me the media
> articles. Show me anything that supports your claims? If a kid were
> worked to the point of injury, yes, but no family has been reported
> and had any action taken against them by CPS or the cops for simply
> have a kid sweep the family floors in or out out of business.
>
> You better get the cops on the phone and report McDonalds, and the
> other fast food joints in your town. I hear they are making kids sweep
> and clean all the time.


Hmm.. you forget.. kids are 9 and 10.. not just 15, which is the age to get
a work permit to work at McDonalds.
>
> Gosh, does that mean I have to run down to CPS and turn in my laundry
> business owning family...the one their little daughter was sweeping
> the floor of?
>
> I'd have to turn in half the business people I know that own their own
> businesses. Most have children and work them in the business, when the
> kid isn't in school.
>
> >Kids are coddled so much today... it's too hot for them to cut the
> >grass...on a riding lawn mower!
>
> I'll run over, next summer, and tell my neighbors they have to step in
> and stop the fun when the two oldest boys are arguing over who gets to
> cut their three acre lawn this time. Child abuse.
>
> >I don't doubt this same attitude filters
> >down to those not fortuate to have a lawn or even a  riding  lawn
> mower.
> >Pity the kids.
>
> Babbling bobb strikes again.
>
> >
> >bobb
> >>
> >> Where does this absolutist view of things come from for you bobb?
>
> So?
>
> No answer? You seem to know everything about the world. Certainly you
> must know where your attitude about the world comes from, don't you?
>
> By the way, I'm reposting this to the relevant Usenet ngs so that our
> Iraqi and arab friends can see what they get so angry at us
> about...our stupider citizens.

Hey.. thanks for saving me the trouble. My welcome mat is not out to
terrorists or even the risk of terroists.

>
> And of course since I consider you such a valuable asset to these ngs
> I want you to have some exposure so other bigots of your stripe will
> come to your defense.
>
> They are in those ngs too. You obviously learned nothing about arab
> culture while in the mideast, failing to even notice that there are
> elements of our own society, regional and ethnic, that have many of
> the same values.

It not the same values that are of concern.  It's the differences... and
there are many.

>
> Americans like you bobb, are offensive to many people in other
> societies. You do not bother to learn the niceties of the tea, the
> time to get acquainted before launching into your opinionated
> bullshit, or demanding something.
>
> You don't know to ask after the grandparents, the fortunes of the
> family, who is off at college in America or Europe, what the last date
> crop made on the chinese market...nothing. You are, according to them,
> and to me, an ignorant, rude, hostile, stupid little man. Ugly
> American.

Thanks for the compliment. I would never inquire about the fortunes of one's
family as being too personal,  or discuss the chinese markets for fear of
exposing their stupidity,  and many I've met have no idea about the schools
in america.. or the schools in their own country.
Ignorance is such bliss.. sometimes.

bobb



>
> "Only mad dogs and englishmen go out in the noonday sun." Ever wonder
> what that meant?
>
> >>
> >> > bobb
> >>
> >> Kane
> >
>
> Kane