Re: Kids should work !!!

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 16:36:54 GMT, "bobb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

bobb once again demonstrates his intellectual limitations, as well as
his connection to reality............

Here we are having a discussion about children and work, with bobb
seeming to make claims that "kids today"...etc, etc etc.
>
>"Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> "bobb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>> > "Greg Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stan J. Lefosi) wrote in message
>> >  news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>> > > > Kids should do more work! They are only playing around,
>> > > > they are lazy, but they could earn money.
>> > > > So kids should work !
>> > >
>> > > Might solve problems with obesity and poor health
>> > > as well as give them more pride, ambition and making
>> > > them better able to handle bigger responsibilities.
>> > >
>> > > Families have actually had to fight to keep the right
>> > > for kids to help in the family business, whether it's
>> > > a retail store, farming, etc.
>> > >
>> > > Many Social Worker types seem to want kids so
>> > > extremely protected I think this gives kids
>> > > "sheltered lives", a naivety about the nature of
>> > > real work.
>> >
>> > Actually, you are treading on a hot issue.. issues that Americans
do not
>> > fully understand or appreciate.
>>
>> Social workers are not against children working. As I pointed out
>> caseworkers are thrilled if a child on their caseload can get a
job.
>> Often they help them do so. The child may be the only one in the
>> family actually working.

Why not respond to this bobb? Nothing to say?

>>
>> > Those so called 'sweat shops' in other countries are a way of
life... it
>is
>> > their culture.
>>
>> Is it our culture?
>
>It is not our culture.. and that is the point.  We should not be
telling
>other people how to live or how to raise their children.

My response was a counter to your contention that OUR children aren't
doing what they should be asked to do, not whether or not we should be
involved in other countries.

You so rarely answer to the question put why should I be surprized
when you are consistent?

>>
>> > Like it or not our early farming ancestors were not so much
>> > different.
>>
>> Have not times changed?
>>
>> Should we put children to the plow because our early ancestors did?
>
>Hmmm... the US Army just phased out KP duties for newrecruits..  and
what a
>howl there has been calling it an injustice to those who served their
week
>of service in earlier days.

What I'm noticing is that both basic training and advanced training
have all been shortened. I hardly think that for a young kid going to
Iraq KP duties are going to teach them how to stay alive and fight a
war like the one underway.

Were it peacetime I might consider your bullshit a bit more. But in an
increasingly technological war interfacing with a guerilla war I'd
prefer the time be spent in training the troops more effectively.

>But to answer your questions.. times have
>changed.. we don't have the plow any longer but their are house-hold
chores
>that should be done by children instead of taking them to the mall or
soccer
>practice.

What makes you think kids don't still do chores? I find it rare to
meet a family that doesn't have chores for the kids. And expectations
for doing schoolwork and all the same things we had to do as kids.

And when I was a kid, and that was before you were one, trust me on
that, there were kids that didn't do chores, and were lazy bums just
like now. You can't prove that kids today are worse than kids when I
was one, because I know better.

The reform schools were full of bad kids. There were kids that smoked
and drank, vast numbers of them, and stole, and got girls pregnant,
etc. It was just better covered up then. I know, I was a kid then and
we knew what was going on.

>>
>> > They intended to have a lot of kids just to help out on the
>> > farm... and from a young age they all performed hard work for
long
>hours.
>>
>> How young? I find no support for this notion and some against.
>
>Ask a few farm boys.. they worked at job in line with the
abilities...  as
>young as preschool.

Yes, and they are still doing it. So what does that prove about your
nonsense claims of kids have all gone bad and lazy?

Juvenile crime has been dropping for years. Teen pregnancy is down and
been going down for some time.

All in all teens are very like the nuts we were when we were kids.
It's a function of being a teen to offend the adults, and they do it
very well indeed, but underneath they haven't changed a bit. They want
what we wanted.
>>
>> > Work that was much harder and dangereous than merely sewing
shirts or
>shoes
>> > together.
>>
>> Yes, many a child died as a result. People still do stupid things
with
>> their children that get them killed. Once it may have constituted
some
>> necessity but today I do not see such necessity, do you?
>
>We are overly-protective.  We even have laws to protect us from
ourselves.
>Now isn't that too stupid?

Well, you are too stupid. Those aren't to protect us from ourselves.
Those are to protect society from the effects of our doing things to
ourselves. So far as I've heard this society isn't ready to leave the
victims of self induced injury dying at the side of the road.

For one thing, what isn't harmful today, can turn, over time, into
something very harmful and expensive. I'm watching the Dutch
experiment with supporting those that do drugs to the point of
becoming a burden on society.

I'm anti War on Drugs, but my alternative is not a popular one. To me
a real war would be to allow those that want to kill themselves with
drugs all the drugs they want....in confinement. For life. What they
have left.

But then I'm a meaner bugger than you ever were, but I have some
brains and knowledge you lack.

>>
>> > It's just another example of people, in this case, Americans, who
want
>to
>> > impose their values on others.
>>
>> I would like to see other peoples live more like we do. They seem
to
>> agree with me. Odd, idnit?
>
>Nope... and as you will see in Iraq.. they do not have a work ethic
and they
>don't understand our way of life. 

What a crock of shit. Iraqi's have no work ethic? I defy you to go
find some Iraqi immigrants, even exiles, and tell them that.

Iraq was once the most modern nation in the middle east. Great
highways, buildings, vast farms, and modern industries. And Iraqi's
had and still have a very strong work ethic.

Where do you get this nonsense?

>The generals do not understand the
>middle-eastern mentality.

What "middle-eastern mentality" would that be? 

>The newly appointed governing council doesn't
>even show up for meetings.

R R R R ... and we do sooooo much better. Ever attended your state
legislature while in session? Counted the empty seats during debate?

You are a record for stupidity on this ng. 

>The do not recognize dead-lines or
>responsibility.

Give us a few examples. 

How many of our bureaucrates fail to meet deadlines? Even paid
contractors of huge and expensive public and private works FAIL TO
MEET DEADLINES.

You are a thoroughgoing bigot of the worst sort. Self deceiving piece
of shit is what you are.

>Within family life, they depend on children to do most of
>the work.

You are referring to ALL families where there is abject poverty.
Everyone works. And our media, of course, focuses on the child labor.

>Early retirement for adults depends the number of children and
>the age they can begin to support the family.

All your Iraqi friends can attest to this claim? Please have them sign
on and give us some messages.

I think you might find some disturbing conter arguments here:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22work+ethic%22&btnG=Google+Search&meta=group%3Dsoc.culture.iraq


>I spent considerable time in
>the middle east and that was my experience.   Who says our way of
life is
>better than others?

Well, you just did. Otherwise why would you claim they lack a work
ethic and work their children so they can retire early.

As for your experience: I'd like to know what segment of Iraqi society
you entered and interacted with.

I've been all over the world and your description fits poverty ridden
segments of all societies, including our own.

Given your record for blind bias exhibited here in these ngs I'd bet
that you failed to see anything but what you wanted to see in the
middle-east.

You remind me of the english emperialists and their view of the
"natives" they were "helping." Instead of learning the local language
they would simply shout in english when not understand by the natives,
and declare them savage and stupid.

But then you've already proven you are a bigot in other posts. 
>>
>> > Not so different than does CPS and other
>> > state agencies.
>>
>> You have worked for state agencies and know this for a fact? I
>> hobnobbed with state workers for many years and their values are
very
>> like yours. They want children to have experience working when it
is
>> appropriate. And by 14 or 15 it is. The trouble is getting them,
the
>> child, to want to work, given the examples they have had with their
>> drug suckin' gang bangin' parents.
>
>Yes, I've worked for governement agencies and in different countries.
 What
>one comes to recognize is the mentality found in other areas of this
great
>world.  Much different than ours.

Oh, you are one of those who think they are all "bloody WOGs" eh?

On the contrary. I find much that is similar. Very little that is
different and I'm not fooled by the surface differences. The man in
the turban is as ambitious for his children as I. The women scrubbing
clothes on a rock in the river dreams of a washing machine, just like
my wife dreams of a new dishwasher.

Most people want the kind of life we have generally. They wanted it
before they knew we Americans had it. We wanted it before we had it.
We got it. So can they. Nation after nation has proven they can.

Your propensity to focus on the differences is the hallmark of the
bigotted mind.

>As for as drug suckin' gang bangin'
>parents.. that, too, is a mentality.. an adopted way of life.

Not too the point. 

>>
>> There are whole industries trying to get the kids to that place.
The
>> do okay, but it's very hard work.
>>
>> > Today, we have adopted work rules for kids...  for better or for
worse..
>but
>> > the end result has been a loss of the work ethic, pride of
>accomplishment,
>> > and skill development... and responsibility.
>>
>> Work rules create "a loss of work ethic, pride of accomplishment,
and
>> skill development... and responsibility" how?
>>
>> They don't stop a child from working.
>>
>> I worked as a child. I swept floors in businesses when I was 7 and
8
>> (got started after I got caught with a candy bar not my own...and
had
>> to work it off...the druggist liked my work...r r r r) and
continued
>> all through my teen years. I was never out of work by other than my
>> own choice when I went back to school, my entire working life. And
>> that is a very very long time now. Over 50 years.
>>
>> I was not allowed to work to the point it interferred with my
school
>> work, or even my play time. I had a ball. I also owned a custom 46
>> Ford business coupe by the time I was 17. All my own money bought
it.
>> Talk about play...r r r .
>>
>> I made my first earned money bank deposit at the age of 7. Part of
>> that money, 10 years later, bought my Ford. Kids still do such
things
>> without having to endanger themselves or cut short their education.
>
>Sounds like your parents didn't rush out to buy you designer jeans..
or
>'sneakers' with a show offer trade mark, either.  

If they had had the money they would have. In fact they did buy me
things they could afford. But then that was true for almost all the
children I knew.

The sneakers and jeans of today were the Keds, Schwinn, and Levi's of
our day.

Jeans were what girls wore. I didn't know "Levi" was a brand name only
until I was about 12. All dark blue denim pants with copper rivets at
the strain points were "Levi's."

So we were JUST as much into brand names .. and they cost the
equivalent of todays designer jeans....as kids of today. My parents
once made me wear "cords" to school....arrrrggggghhhh. I dumped them
in the trash after school and came home in my gym shorts claiming they
have been stolen from the locker room because I had left them out
while suited up for gym.

>Today, if a child was
>found even sweeping floors the parents would be called into
question...
>probably by CPS...and certainly the neighbors... as would the
'employer'.

You are so full of shit. Show me the reports. Show me the media
articles. Show me anything that supports your claims? If a kid were
worked to the point of injury, yes, but no family has been reported
and had any action taken against them by CPS or the cops for simply
have a kid sweep the family floors in or out out of business.

You better get the cops on the phone and report McDonalds, and the
other fast food joints in your town. I hear they are making kids sweep
and clean all the time.

Gosh, does that mean I have to run down to CPS and turn in my laundry
business owning family...the one their little daughter was sweeping
the floor of?

I'd have to turn in half the business people I know that own their own
businesses. Most have children and work them in the business, when the
kid isn't in school.

>Kids are coddled so much today... it's too hot for them to cut the
>grass...on a riding lawn mower! 

I'll run over, next summer, and tell my neighbors they have to step in
and stop the fun when the two oldest boys are arguing over who gets to
cut their three acre lawn this time. Child abuse.

>I don't doubt this same attitude filters
>down to those not fortuate to have a lawn or even a  riding  lawn
mower.
>Pity the kids.

Babbling bobb strikes again. 

>
>bobb
>>
>> Where does this absolutist view of things come from for you bobb?

So?

No answer? You seem to know everything about the world. Certainly you
must know where your attitude about the world comes from, don't you?

By the way, I'm reposting this to the relevant Usenet ngs so that our
Iraqi and arab friends can see what they get so angry at us
about...our stupider citizens.

And of course since I consider you such a valuable asset to these ngs
I want you to have some exposure so other bigots of your stripe will
come to your defense.

They are in those ngs too. You obviously learned nothing about arab
culture while in the mideast, failing to even notice that there are
elements of our own society, regional and ethnic, that have many of
the same values.

Americans like you bobb, are offensive to many people in other
societies. You do not bother to learn the niceties of the tea, the
time to get acquainted before launching into your opinionated
bullshit, or demanding something.

You don't know to ask after the grandparents, the fortunes of the
family, who is off at college in America or Europe, what the last date
crop made on the chinese market...nothing. You are, according to them,
and to me, an ignorant, rude, hostile, stupid little man. Ugly
American.

"Only mad dogs and englishmen go out in the noonday sun." Ever wonder
what that meant?

>>
>> > bobb
>>
>> Kane
>

Kane