Re: "smoked salmon socialists"

"usual suspect" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
<snip>
> That's a matter than can be remedied via the Act's oversight provisions.
> I respect Bob Barr. He's a former federal prosecutor, and he was part of
> the process in passing the Patriot Act while he was in Congress (he was
> on the Judiciary Committee!), so all his concerns now are very puzzling.
> Where was he during the debate over the Act?

Maybe he was caught up in all the fervor over getting it passed to give the
gov. more power to attack the terrorists and didn't realize or didn't care
how badly it could be abused. I think maybe he did realize and did care, but
thought it was more urgent to be able to deal with the terrorists and that
the whole privacy issue could be fixed later.

> > The Sedition Act was a bad thing because it prevented people from having
> > free speech.
>
> I think provisions regarding the efforts of certain persons "to promote
> the success of its enemies" and to "incite insubordination, disloyalty,
> mutiny, or refusal of duty, in the military or naval forces of the
> United States" should be against the law. Treason is noted in the
> Constitution; I don't think it's protected under the First Amendment.

Treason is against the law. If someone commits treason, yes, they can be
taken care of. That goes far beyond free speech.

> > How can we criticize a bad move if our government does make
> > one, if we can't speak out against it without facing being treated as
> > criminals?
>
> Read the Act yourself. It was specific about what acts were seditious.
> http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918/usspy.html
>

((SECTION 3. Whoever, when the United States is at war, shall willfully make
or convey false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with
the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United
States,))

"False" reports may in fact be true reports, but against the party line of
whoever is waging an unjust war. Now I think the Iraq war is just but there
may have been some that were not, and may be some in the future that will
not be just.

As American citizens the press and individuals have rights to share their
opinions on whether or not a particular war is justified. Just because
they're absolutely wrong doesn't mean they don't have the right to be wrong.


((or to promote the success of its enemies, or shall willfully make or
convey false reports, or false statements, . . . or incite insubordination,
disloyalty, mutiny,))

I think if someone is helping the enemy there are sufficient laws to cover
that, treason comes to mind.

((or refusal of duty, in the military or naval forces of the United
States, ))

Encouraging draft dodging IS pretty bad.

((or shall willfully obstruct . . . the recruiting or enlistment service of
the United States, or . . . shall willfully utter, print, write, or publish
any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the form of
government of the United States, ))

I guess all those Clinton jokes would've been against the law as long as he
decided to bomb something.

((or the Constitution of the United States, or the military or naval forces
of the United States . . . or shall willfully display the flag of any
foreign enemy, ))

What if someone had been displaying a French or German flag? Would they have
been considered to be violating this part? What about an Iraqi flag? We
weren't at war with Iraq, we were at war with Saddam.

((or shall willfully . . . urge, incite, or advocate any curtailment of
production . . . or advocate, teach, defend, or suggest the doing of any of
the acts or things in this section enumerated and whoever shall by word or
act support or favor the cause of any country with which the United States
is at war or by word or act oppose the cause of the United States therein,
shall be punished by a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not
more than twenty years, or both....))

There were programs I read meant for public schools which were pretty awful.
One of them involved telling kids the story of this Iraqi kid who wanted to
grow up to be a pilot, but his dreams may never come true because of the
embargo forced by the U.S. *L*

Here's another story that I heard of a while back, I was lucky to find a
link for it again:

http://pewforum.org/news/display.php?NewsID=1510

Now that kind of thing is unacceptable.

> > Do you think that we should still be hunting down the commies in this
> > country too?
>
> I don't think there are enough left to hunt. I favor, though, branding
> socialists with that name publicly rather than letting them call
> themselves Democrats, progressives, etc.

You'd have to brand half the country. Unfortunately I don't think most
people are conservative anymore.

> >>Every law has that potential. Even the absence of law has that potential
> >>-- just look at how the Supreme Court interprets matters these days. The
> >>Tenth Amendment is meaningless thanks to majorities of robed rogues.
> >
> > State's Rights have been eroded to almost nothing. But what would you
> > propose if they did have more power?
>
> I'd propose just what the founders did: a central government with very
> limited powers deferring to the states with powers suited to the wills
> of their citizens.

I think more local control of things is a good idea in theory but how could
we make sure that things like civil rights weren't violated?

> > There were times I joked about seceding
> > again when Clinton was in office.
>
> Secession is a separate issue. I shared your views in the '90s.

:)

> > One thing that I noticed that gets on my nerves quite a bit is that
there
> > are no national science standards. If there were, we might be able to
stifle
> > a lot of the creationists who go state to state, trying to wedge in ID.
>
> I think states should be allowed to set their own educational standards.
> If they want to teach evolution, creationism, or both, why should the
> federal government care? There's a lot more to science than competing
> theories of origins.

Because there is no theory of creationism. It's a load of pseudoscientific
garbage that keeps trying to worm its way into public schools, year after
year, state after state, school board after schoolboard. Evolution is the
foundation of all modern biology, and one of the most well-established
scientific theories.

If we had national standards which said "Only science may be taught in a
science class room" or something to that effect, then  things would be much
better, I think.

-Rubystars