Re: Shooting Ourselves in the Foot

"rick etter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> "Andrew Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> snippage...
>
>
>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > 1) You said he now buys meat from Safeway, whereas the article
> says
> > he
> > > > > >    is a vegetarian
> > > > > ====================
> > > > > He last killed an animal hunting in '92.  He still hunted until
'97.
> > > One
> > > > > would have to think that since he didn't kill anything for 5
years,
> he
> > > > must
> > > > > have been buying it for some time.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yeh that does not really make sense to me, maybe 'hunted' is a
> misnomer
> > as
> > > > he seems to suggest in the next paragraph that in the 5 years he was
> not
> > > > trying to kill anything. Or perhaps he was just a really crap hunter
> and
> > > > could
> > > > not even pop one off in 5 years.
> > > ========================
> > > I took it that he didn't really try.  Either way, I'd say he wasn't
> veggie
> > > at that time...
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > 2) You said he pretends that his food and lifestyle does not
> involve
> > > the
> > > > > >    killing of animals at all, whereas the article stated that he
> > > > accepted
> > > > > >    that even as a vege he still kills animals
> > > > > =====================
> > > > > Yep, that's the earmark of the typical vegan.  Notice the
'animals'
> he
> > > > talks
> > > > > about are bugs.
> > > >
> > > > He is providing one example of animals that he kills to prove the
> point,
> > > > you cannot interpret this as him saying that bugs on his truck grill
> are
> > > the
> > > > only animals he is taking responsibility for.
> > > =================
> > > But, if he really understood the impact of crop production, don't you
> > think
> > > he would have mentioned that, as that has more to do with a veggie
diet?
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > I've never added bugs to the mix when I'm discussing animal
> > > > > death and suffering, but if that's what you want to do, I'm more
> than
> > > > > willing to add the billions of bugs crops kill to your total of
> > > > unnecessary
> > > > > animal death and suffering.
> > > > > Want to give it a go?
> > > > > Plus, he has no idea whether he's minimizing his impact or not.
> You,
> > > and
> > > > > he, have never measured it to begin with.
> > > ==================
> > > Ah, no comment.  As usual...
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I can't say I would like to eat bugs, but I can't say I care much if
they
> > get killed either.
> =======================
> No one is talking about killing bugs to eat them.  They die by the
billions
> just to keep your veggies clean, cheap, and convenient.  You'd better
check
> into all the environmental damage done just to keep them at bay for you
> benefit.
>

Don't get so uptight, I was only saying I would not like to eat them, then
directly afterwards I said I don't care how they get killed, either by
predator or machine. So your comment was unneccessary.

>
>
> Bugs adapt to human made environments very easily
> > primarily because of their small size. I don't think there is much
> > difference between a bird eating a bug or a tractor squiching one.
> > That said though, I don't go around my house with a can of fly spray.
> > Preventative measures (cleanliness) are much better if you have bug
> > problems at home.
> >
> > As I said at the very start of this thread, "I am not arguing either
way"
> > because my primary reasons for not using animals are environmental.
> ===========================
> No it's not, because you haven't chosen the most environmentally sound
> choice.  You've made a choice on faith, a religious faith.  A faith that
is
> not backed up by any data.  Mono-culture crop production is environmental
> damage.  Is you were truely concerned with your impact, you'd hunt, and
find
> meats raised on a different scale.  Grass-fed and organic beef is
available
> where you are.  By boycotting your entire beef industry, you have no say
in
> its future.  If you don't like large scale operations, increase the demand
> for small scale, grass-fed and organic operations by purchasing them.
You'd
> do two things that way, decrease the industry that you deem unnecessary
and
> harmful, and reduce the number of calories from factory farmed veggies as
> well.  Both of which would reduce your impact on animals *and* the
> environment.  You won't though, and even worse, you won't even consider it
> because it violates the simple rule for simple minds mantra, 'eat no
meat'.
>
>
>  For
> > example, I enjoy going scuba diving, however these days I have to
> > travel for hours up the coast by car just to get to decent diving
> > locations.
> ================
> So, you're not concerned enough about the environment that it interfers
with
> your entertainment, uh?
>

Again lighten up, I was merely making a point that the waters around my home
have become virtually void of fish and are very mirky. The dive spot up
the coast is actually an offshore island far from the silt of farms.

>
>  I actually live about 1 minutes walk from the sea, however
> > it is unsuitable for diving for two reasons. 1) There are not many
> > fish left in the harbour. 2) The runoff from surrounding farms has,
> > over the last 50 years turned the bay where I live into a mangrove
> > estuary. I have not seen this first hand, however the Howick historical
> > society has descriptions of my bay from early settler times.
> > There is a old man living a few houses up the road from me who has told
> > me that when he was young he used to watch from the cliffs above the bay
> > 10s of sting rays cruizing the shallows, this happened on a daily basis.
> > I have only ever seen 1 small stingray in the bay, and that was about
> > 10 years ago.
> >
> > My point is that I don't think humans have a clue about how ecosystems
> > really work and it seems to me that the more we can leave them be then
> > the better.
> =====================
> Something which you don't intend to do though, right?  If you wanted to
> leave the ecosystem better off, you'd be out hunting.  That is by far the
> most environmentally friendly way to get a portion of your food.  Again
> though, you won't.  It's far easier to just rant about how bad you think
> others are doing, and telling yourself that you are ok.
>

Please provide me with figures suggesting that large scale human
hunting with today's population is sustainable.

>
>  The problem is that people do not notice gradual changes,
> > if someone moved into my street these days they would probably think
> > that the bay had always been like it is, lifeless and dirty.
> >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From the article:
> > > > > > > > -------------------------
> > > > > > > > Am I responsible for the death of animals, even though I am
a
> > > > > > vegetarian,
> > > > > > > > don't use leather or fur? Sure. One only need observe the
bugs
> > on
> > > my
> > > > > > truck
> > > > > > > > grill to see that. But I have decided to minimize my impact
on
> > > > animals
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > work to help them, rather than kill them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There's nothing in that article to indicate he is "minimizing"
> his
> > > > > impact
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > animals, on the contrary, by substutiting store-bought,
> > agribusiness
> > > > > plant
> > > > > > > based foods for that nutrient rich food he used to get by
> hunting
> > > has
> > > > > very
> > > > > > > likely increased his overall impact on animals. When you
> consider
> > > the
> > > > > > impact
> > > > > > > of pesticides, hebicides, loss of habitat, ploughing,
> harvesting,
> > > > > storage,
> > > > > > > etc.. his personal animal deaths per calorie quotient has
almost
> > > > surely
> > > > > > > increased.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have a lot of making up to do.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As I said, his concern is all about his own sensibilities, not
> > about
> > > > the
> > > > > > > animals.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you want my opinion, this article was faked by an animal
> rights
> > > > > > advocate,
> > > > > > > it has all the earmarks of their fallacious thinking.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
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