Re: Shooting Ourselves in the Foot

"rick etter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> "Andrew Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > "rick etter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > "Andrew Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >
> > > > "Dutch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > >
> > > > > "Andrew Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > > "Dutch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > > > "ta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
> > > > > > > > Interesting how this letter from an ex-hunter almostly
exactly
> > > > echoes
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > sentiments laid out in the "Reasons/Excuses for Hunting and
> > > Fishing"
> > > > > > > thread.
> > > > > > > > My comments enclosed with **
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This [alleged] person became squeamish so now they buy their
> meat
> > at
> > > > > > Safeway
> > > > > > > so they don't have to kill animals for themselves. The next
> step,
> > > they
> > > > > > > beccome squeamish about that and become a vegetarian so they
can
> > > > pretend
> > > > > > > that their food and lifestyle doesn't involve killing of
animals
> > at
> > > > all.
> > > > > > > Then they can put up a website to make themselves feel
important
> > by
> > > > > > > condemning unsqueamish people. No,it's not interesting at all,
> > it's
> > > a
> > > > > > tired
> > > > > > > old story.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not arguing either way,
> > > > >
> > > > > Really? Are you telling me that you're not sympathetic to his
> "journey
> > > > into
> > > > > compassion"?
> > > > >
> > > > >  however I do think you should have read the
> > > > > > article properly before commenting on it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I did read it, why would you assume I didn't?.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Because your response was not in concordance wth the article:
> > > ==============
> > > Then neither did you.
> > >
> > >
> > > > 1) You said he now buys meat from Safeway, whereas the article says
he
> > > >    is a vegetarian
> > > ====================
> > > He last killed an animal hunting in '92.  He still hunted until '97.
> One
> > > would have to think that since he didn't kill anything for 5 years, he
> > must
> > > have been buying it for some time.
> > >
> >
> > Yeh that does not really make sense to me, maybe 'hunted' is a misnomer
as
> > he seems to suggest in the next paragraph that in the 5 years he was not
> > trying to kill anything. Or perhaps he was just a really crap hunter and
> > could
> > not even pop one off in 5 years.
> ========================
> I took it that he didn't really try.  Either way, I'd say he wasn't veggie
> at that time...
>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > > 2) You said he pretends that his food and lifestyle does not involve
> the
> > > >    killing of animals at all, whereas the article stated that he
> > accepted
> > > >    that even as a vege he still kills animals
> > > =====================
> > > Yep, that's the earmark of the typical vegan.  Notice the 'animals' he
> > talks
> > > about are bugs.
> >
> > He is providing one example of animals that he kills to prove the point,
> > you cannot interpret this as him saying that bugs on his truck grill are
> the
> > only animals he is taking responsibility for.
> =================
> But, if he really understood the impact of crop production, don't you
think
> he would have mentioned that, as that has more to do with a veggie diet?
>
>
> >
> > > I've never added bugs to the mix when I'm discussing animal
> > > death and suffering, but if that's what you want to do, I'm more than
> > > willing to add the billions of bugs crops kill to your total of
> > unnecessary
> > > animal death and suffering.
> > > Want to give it a go?
> > > Plus, he has no idea whether he's minimizing his impact or not.  You,
> and
> > > he, have never measured it to begin with.
> ==================
> Ah, no comment.  As usual...
>
>

I can't say I would like to eat bugs, but I can't say I care much if they
get killed either. Bugs adapt to human made environments very easily
primarily because of their small size. I don't think there is much
difference between a bird eating a bug or a tractor squiching one.
That said though, I don't go around my house with a can of fly spray.
Preventative measures (cleanliness) are much better if you have bug
problems at home.

As I said at the very start of this thread, "I am not arguing either way"
because my primary reasons for not using animals are environmental. For
example, I enjoy going scuba diving, however these days I have to
travel for hours up the coast by car just to get to decent diving
locations. I actually live about 1 minutes walk from the sea, however
it is unsuitable for diving for two reasons. 1) There are not many
fish left in the harbour. 2) The runoff from surrounding farms has,
over the last 50 years turned the bay where I live into a mangrove
estuary. I have not seen this first hand, however the Howick historical
society has descriptions of my bay from early settler times.
There is a old man living a few houses up the road from me who has told
me that when he was young he used to watch from the cliffs above the bay
10s of sting rays cruizing the shallows, this happened on a daily basis.
I have only ever seen 1 small stingray in the bay, and that was about
10 years ago.

My point is that I don't think humans have a clue about how ecosystems
really work and it seems to me that the more we can leave them be then
the better. The problem is that people do not notice gradual changes,
if someone moved into my street these days they would probably think
that the bay had always been like it is, lifeless and dirty.

>
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > > From the article:
> > > > > > -------------------------
> > > > > > Am I responsible for the death of animals, even though I am a
> > > > vegetarian,
> > > > > > don't use leather or fur? Sure. One only need observe the bugs
on
> my
> > > > truck
> > > > > > grill to see that. But I have decided to minimize my impact on
> > animals
> > > > and
> > > > > > work to help them, rather than kill them.
> > > > >
> > > > > There's nothing in that article to indicate he is "minimizing" his
> > > impact
> > > > on
> > > > > animals, on the contrary, by substutiting store-bought,
agribusiness
> > > plant
> > > > > based foods for that nutrient rich food he used to get by hunting
> has
> > > very
> > > > > likely increased his overall impact on animals. When you consider
> the
> > > > impact
> > > > > of pesticides, hebicides, loss of habitat, ploughing, harvesting,
> > > storage,
> > > > > etc.. his personal animal deaths per calorie quotient has almost
> > surely
> > > > > increased.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I have a lot of making up to do.
> > > > >
> > > > > As I said, his concern is all about his own sensibilities, not
about
> > the
> > > > > animals.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you want my opinion, this article was faked by an animal rights
> > > > advocate,
> > > > > it has all the earmarks of their fallacious thinking.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>