Re: Karen Winter, the Rush Limbaugh of t.p.a./a.a.e.v.

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 23:36:30 GMT, Bill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Ipse dixit wrote:
>> On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:53:32 GMT, Bill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>Ipse dixit wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 22:37:47 GMT, Bill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Ipse dixit wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 14:29:31 -0700, Rat & Swan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Derek wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>><snip>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>False. Vegans are not the cause of animal or human
>>>>>>>>collateral deaths in agriculture.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I agree.  It is the farmers' choice to use the methods
>>>>>>>he does, just as it is a drug-dealer's choice to deal
>>>>>>>drugs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Rat
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Either are free to drive a cab for a living, Rat. ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>>Karen Winter 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Karen Winter = Rat & Swan?
>>>
>>>Yes.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>is free to withdraw from the market for 
>>>>>commercially grown produce.  She CHOOSES to buy from 
>>>>>animal-killing farmers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Aha. "animal-killing farmers"
>>>
>>>Yes.  She knows they kill animals, but she buys from 
>>>them anyway.  

There are two problems with that.

1) She has no certain knowledge of the history behind
    the goods she buys, unless it is farmed meat.
2) You are assuming she will continue to buy goods which 
    have been produced in a way she finds unethical.

Her decision to avoid farmed meat on ethical grounds
proves she wouldn't do either 1 or 2.

>>>That makes her morally complicit, if she 
>>>believes the killing of the animals is wrong.
>>>
Why or how, and by whose rule?

>> Is there any doubt that killing gratuitously is wrong,
>
>Yes, much:
>
>1.  Most omnivores don't believe philosophically that 
>it's wrong.

Then if most Muslims don't believe philosophically that
murder and suicide bombing is wrong, do we or the rest of 
the Muslim world also believe that is right to commit murder
by carrying bombs into public places, Mr. Ad populum?

>2.  "vegans" *claim* to believe philosophically that it's
>     wrong, but their behavior says otherwise.
>
What vegan behaviour tells you that, and where have
you seen this contradictory behaviour?

>> and should she
>> or you or I who buy from careless farmers and slave keepers 
>> be held accountable for their wrong work practices, even though 
>> we all buy from the general marketplace where these goods are 
>> distributed, apparently as perfectly ethical goods?
>
>1.  You know what's going on before the goods get to 
>market.

No, I do not, so please answer the question. I buy goods
from the general marketplace without any prior knowledge
of the production methods used in my particular choice of
food or footwear, so how can I be held accountable for
buying the few unethical items that do reach my stores? Am
I to assume that all my goods are produced using unethical
means to satisfy your argument?

>2.  You don't have to buy there.
>

How do I know when I have left or entered that market?

[snipped abusive ad hominem]