Re: Call To Ban All Fishing In 1/3 Of World's Seas

Zakwhore wrote:
> > > Interaction? With what?
> >
> > With other animals.
>
> No evidence of that.

According to ARA literature, they're kept in complete isolation. The 
pictures both of us have put forward show that's not the case.

> > > I accept that tiny is a relative term, but what the hell would you call
> > > tiny?
> >
> > Anything forbidding freedom of movement, which is the broad charge
> > leveled by ARAs despite the fact that very few veal producers use such
> > tiny crates.
>
> A fence forbids movement.

The objection I made about ARA literature is that it's grossly 
distorted. Tiny wooden crates are presented as the MO of the veal 
industry worldwide. The ARA literature paints a picture of cramped 
conditions in which a calf cannot even stretch its legs. The pictures 
you and I have put forward show that is simply not the case.

> > > > These are typical veal calf conditions according to the AR terrorists
> > > > and propagandists:
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/lvqv
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/lvr1
> > >
> > > They are the sort of crates being used in Europe. In fact, it looks like
> > > they're still being used in the US.
> >
> > Not on a wide-scale, if at all.
>
> Have you the evidence for that claim?

I've presented evidence many times before:

        Are veal calves kept in crates?
        Far from the four-sided "crate" portrayed by some activist
        groups, modern veal stalls are designed to partition the animals
        only up to the shoulder level, ensuring calves visual and
        physical interaction with their neighbors. Individual housing
        allows animals to receive their own feed, individual care and
        attention. Most importantly, individual housing stalls have been
        shown to help prevent the spread of disease by minimizing
        calf-to-calf contact. Calves can comfortably lay in a natural
        position, stand up and groom themselves.
http://www.vealusa.com/info/faq.html

Note, too, from the same FAQ that anemia is NOT forced via veal calf 
diet. Their feed formula contains iron.

> > > Try this:
> > >
> > > http://www.noveal.org/wi_photos.htm
> >
> > "Recent" is as relative as "tiny." There's no date on the page. That's
> > consistent with other ARA claims and materials showing the tiny wooden
> > crates in all their current literature. Why would groups resort to
> > showing conditions used 30 years ago when the industry has made
> > significant changes?
> >
> >
> > > http://www.vegetarianimage.com/Photos.htm
> >
> > No cramped cages there.
>
> Are you blind?

No, are you?

> > > > > http://tinyurl.com/lvod
> > > >
> > > > > From the article itself, we find that this is a picture (one of four in
> > > > the article itself) of study conditions. Here's the link. You can find
> > > > out what was being studied yourself:
> > > > http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/newsletters/v7n3/7n3morro.htm
> > > >
> > > > Try to be a little less shady with sources next time.
> > >
> > > Not shady. I posted as PICTURES of tiny crates, not a full study.
> >
> > The STUDY was entitled "Environmental Enrichment of Dairy Calves and
> > Pigs." The STUDY looked at behaviors in relation to items put in the
> > pens to stimulate the calves as well as biological responses (e.g.,
> > immunological) of calves that had more stimuli. It's more than
> > disingenuous of you to paste in a picture and suggest it represents
> > *industry* standards when in fact it's from a *limited* study.
> >
> >
> > > > > http://tinyurl.com/lvoh
> > > >
> > > > How about a link to the full story? Hard to trace it back with a link to
> > > > one image, especially when the directory listing is denied.
> > >
> > > http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/72540_dairy30.shtml
> >
> > Caption from picture: "Larry Stap, a dairy farmer in Lynden, Whatcom
> > County, moves a calf from the hutch where SHE spent her first two months
> > TO A PEN WITH OTHER CALVES" (my emphasis). Note that she's not being
> > raised for veal. She's going into dairy production.
> >
> >
> > > > > http://www.osseoplastics.com/hutches.htm
> > > >
> > > > What's wrong with that? It's not a darkened, teeny-tiny wooden crate
> > > > like AR terrorists and propagandists claim.
> > >
> > > It's designed to be used inside. It's a tiny PLASTIC crate.
> >
> > Not tiny.
>
> You're slightly mad.

No, you're exaggerating their conditions to make an erroneous, emotional 
claim.

> > > > > > Bullshit. The fishing industry wants sustainability and profits. What
> > > > > > good is a profit today if there's no chance of one tomorrow? That's
> why
> > > > > > the fishing industry is working for sustainable practices.
> > > > >
> > > > > Crap. Some fishermen what sustainability. Some what whatever they can
> > >
> > > get.
> > >
> > >
> > > > ALL fishermen want sustainability. Why would they be in and remain in an
> > > > industry, making large investments in capital (boats, nets, etc.) and
> > > > labor, if they faced *no* future in it?
> > >
> > > They invest in more capital to catch what *remains* of the fish stocks.
> To
> > > maintain their income in the face of a dwindling fish population.
> >
> > That makes no sense, Zakhar. Not economically, not rationally, not in
> > any manner.
>
> Good -  you're learning.

I've already learned my economics. When are you going to catch up?