Re: New dog and territory marking

Thank you for your input. I think we'll be okay. If history means anything
ours is one of having happy dogs who lived full lives as members of our
family. We try to look at all the options and make good decisions. That is
why I came here for input. I figured I'd get good additional ideas from
other dog owners.

I've always tried to avoid lunatic ideas from ranting folks on an agenda as
well as snake oil concepts that come and go with the wind. That thinking has
served me well and I'm sure it will continue to do so.

Thanks for the input.

SGF


"The Puppy Wizard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> HOWEDY SGF,
>
> "SGF" <pamlico_test@(nospam)hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > We just adapted a half boxer half great dane mix.
>
> Oh goody! tara o. is affiliated with boxer rescue.
> She'll teach you HOWE to KILL the Boxer half...
>
> > He's about 1 or 2 yrs. old and his history isn't the prettiest.
> > From what we know he was at a minimum neglected including
> > starved and exposed to the elements.
>
> That's irrelevant.
>
> > His vet appointments are already set up to deal with
> > some of these issues and for more shots and neutering.
>
> BEWAAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
>
> Neutering for WHAAAAT? To make IT healthier? To control
> roaming? To avoid accidental breeding with your brood bitches?
>
> WHAAAAT???
>
> You're gonna mutilate your dog cause some lying dog abusing
> Punk Thug Coward tells you to? Or so you can support the vet's
> family vacation, summer camp, and college educations?
>
> WHAAAAAT???
>
> > We are experienced dog owners (not experts) and did our
> > homework prior to bringing him home. I'd like more input
> > on the issue of marking territory,
>
> Marking is an anxiety behavior, very seldom is it sexual.
>
> > so I have all the bases covered
>
> You won't be gettin no information from HOWER dog
> lovers, they're still debating the benefits of the slip
> choke collar Vs the pronged spiked pinch choke collar
> Vs the Gl NECK BREAKER, Vs the shock collar, Vs
> aversive sprays, crate, tethering and tie dHOWENS.
>
> > when the big moment comes and he is allowed
> > unsupervised run of the house.
>
> You'll have him in PERFECT CONTROL in abHOWET WON
> HOWER, if you follow the proven effective gentle FAST EZ
> FREE scientific and psychological techniques taught in The
> Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method
> Manual.
>
> > When we got him home last night we let him examine the
> > yard freely and toured the workshop and house with him
> > on a leash.
>
> Good.
>
> > He only exhibited behavior one time that looked like he was
> > preparing to mark indoors.
>
> HOWEsbreaking is INSTINCTIVE. Only a dog trainer could
> confHOWEND that.
>
> >  He stopped after a mild correction of "no".
>
> You mean, you taught him HOWE to command 100% of your
> univided attention and reinforced the behavior. Any time the
> dog can stop you dead in your tracks and make you pay him
> all your attention, he's learned HOWE to control you.
>
> > We have no other dogs but the scent of my son's dog is about,
> > since they recently stayed with us. We have cats that are
> comfortable
> > with dogs. He has been great with them so far.
>
> HOWER dog lovers prefer to allHOWE their kats to intimidate
> their dogs to train them...and let their dogs fight for alpha
> status.
>
> > I'd be interested in any additional thoughts and ideas about
> > making a smooth transition to him accepting the whole house
> > as a no pee zone.
>
> HOWER dogs lovers will tell you to constantly supervise
> and lock IT in a box.
>
> > thanks
>
> Have you been readin HOWER forum?
>
> > SGF
>
> This is who you're askin for heelp:
>
> Here's some of the dangerHOWES screwballs, liars,
> dog abusers, and cowards The Puppy Wizard is busy
> EXXXPOSING far beyond the limits any ordinary person
> could tolerate:
>
> > I'll be you've never had to put down litters of
> > beautiful labrador puppies? If you had did, maybe
> > you'd be singing a different tune?
>
> "Actually, have held them for the tech to euth, and
> put their bodies in the trash bag and in the freezer
> for the trash company to come and dispose of.
>
> No different tune," ~Emily
>
> "I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.  I volunteered
> as assistant to the euthanasia tech at our local shelter
> for a while, and I know a bit about overpopulation and
> unwanted animals.
>
> This however has nothing at all to do with responsible
> breeders, because responsible breeders don't contribute
> to that problem," Mustang Sally.
>
>
> > lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
> >  For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
> >  pass it through the crate door.  Attach a line to it.
> >  When he barks, use the line for a correction.
> >
> >>- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
> >>
> >>Lynn K.
> >
> > ================
> >
> >>lynn kosmakos      (Lithium, Zoloft, bipolar, manic,
> >>                             depression) will "put down a biter
> >>                             as fast as anyone" yet claims to
> >>                             be a saintly dog rescuer
> >
> >>Lynn K. wrote:
> >>
> >>"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
> >>one shelter.)  But their ability to set their own
> >>schedules and duties causes a great deal of
> >>scheduling overhead.
> >>
> >>And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
> >>volunteers get the meaningful experience that
> >>they work for.
> >>
> >>Someone has to be responsible for that
> >>Volunteer Program, and it is best done
> >>by a non-volunteer."
> >>
> >>Lynn K.
> >>---------------------------------
> >>
> >>"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
> >>every adoptable dog on intake.  I frankly felt that the
> >>effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
> >>older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.
> >>
> >>Should I have refused to groom them?
> >>
> >>Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
> >>had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."
> >>
> >>Lynn K.
> >>--------------------------------------
>
>
>  Are those MENTAL CASES, or NOT? Here's MOORE:
>
> Can you tell the TRUTH from a LIE?:
>
>           > > > Jerome Bigge writes:
>           > > > I do know that hitting, hurting
>           > > > your dog will often make the
>           > > > dog either aggressive or a fear
>           > > > biter, neither of which we want to do.
>
> And then we got, matty! Follow his discussion!
> This is what's called, a liar and dog abuser:
>
>           > > And neither does anyone else,
>           > > Jerome.  No matter
>           > > what Jerry Howe states.
>
> "Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
> Dealing With This I've Suggested It To Quite
> A Few Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY
> TIME The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer,
> 33 Years Experience.
>
> You DO remember KILLFILING MARILYN for her coment above
> regarding her success with The Puppy Wizard's Surrogate Toy
> Separation Anxiety / Bed Time Calming Technique (STSA/BTCT)?
>
> Perhaps you likeWIZE recall a pediatrician, Dr. Z, who commented
> that his bed time calming technique was quite similar?
>
>           > > You're scary Marilyn.
>
>           > > Marilyn must be quite a disturbed
>           > > individual.  I feel very sorry for her
>           > > and her family.
>
> "His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry.
> Your Method Takes Positive Training To The
> Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All
> Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank
> You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce,
> Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience.
>
>           > > BUT, giving you the benefit of the
>           > > doubt, please provide a quote (an
>           > > original quote, not from one of Jerry
>           > > Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
>           > > shows a regular poster promoting or
>           > > using an abusive form of training.
>
> BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
>
>           > > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
>
> "Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
> Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
> Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
> Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
> The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
> mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
>
> You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to
> MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY???
>
> "Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
> A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know
> Jack Wouldn't HaveDone It If He Thought Solo
> Couldn't Take It. I Still Crate Him Because
> Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.
>
> You think allowing a "FEAR AGGRESSIVE MAN
> SHY" dog to be BEATEN by a strange male trainer
> is INTELLIGENT BEHAVIOR for a DOG LOVER?
>
> "Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
> Quite Harsh And  Cause You To Cringe. This Is A
> Normal Reaction The First Few  Times It Happens,
> But You'll Get Over It."mike duforth, author:
> "Courteous Canine."
>
> You think HURTIN dogs and CRINGING
> is COURTEOUS?
>
> "I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
> your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
> as possible. What  does this mean?"
>
> Means the author is a dog abuser of the worst magnitude.
>
> "When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time, spray
> one squirt directly into the dog's mouth and walk away. The dog
> won't be too thrilled with this but just ignore him and continue
> your normal behavior."
>
> You think HURTING your dog is NORMAL BEHAVIOR?
>
>   --Mike Dufort
>     author of the zero selling book
>     "Courteous Canines"
>
> You think HOWER pal mikey is playin with a full deck?
>
> Yeah. When I preload my dog's mouth with bitter apple,
> suppose I don't get used to being stupid and cruel, mikey?
>
> Then HOWE do I train my dog if I can't HURT it?
>
> "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm Over The Lab's
> Shoulder, Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My Left Hand,
> Rolled Her On Her Side, Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled
> Into Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly Nipped Her
> Ear," sionnach.
>
> Oh, THANKS, sinofabitch...
>
>   And from terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
>   "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
>   something you twisted out of context,
>   because you are full of bizarro manure."
>
>            "Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a
>            helper wield the stick, or do it yourself.
>            Tougher, less tractable dogs may require
>            you to progress to striking them more
>            sharply," lying frosty dahl, ethical breeder,
>            expert trainer.
>
> You think a EXXXPERT trainer got to BEAT
> a HUNTIN dog to MAKE IT HUNT?
>
>         "Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
>         Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
>         With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
>         discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
>
> Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies HURT all
> their lives like HOWE HOWER dog lovers PREFER to
> HURT THEIR DOGS?
>
> "John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
> gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
> rump with a training stick while holding him partially
> off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
> to the line and cast him back to the dummies."
>
> The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
> to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.
>
> We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...
>
>              terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
>             "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
>             things is something you twisted out of
>             context, because you are full of bizarro
>             manure."
>
> Sez on our FAQ'S pages at K9 Web you should knee the dog in the
> chest, step on its toes, throw him down by his ears and climb all
> over
> it like a raped ape growling into his throat and bite IT on his
> ears, or
> leash pop it on a pronged spiked pinch choke collar or pop him in
> the
> snout with the heel of your palm.
>
> "BethF" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > "Frank" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leah) wrote in message
> news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > >"brianev" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > > > I ENJOYED reading your book, and
> > > > > AGREED with what you had to say.
> > > > > I find it sick to hear what people
> > > > > do with their dogs.
> :
> > > > Keep in mind that everything he says that
> > > > the regular posters of this ng do to their
> > > > dogs are lies.
> :
> > > > All of it.  Every last bit.
> :
> > > All of it?
> :
> > > Ear pinching?
> :
> > > Shock collars?
> :
> > > Spiked chokers?
> :
> > > The regulars lie more in their denials than
> > > Howe does in his accusing of them.
> :
> > Uh, Frank?  Who do you see denying anything?
> > Its quite interesting that a newbie like yourself
> > would see denials when everyone has Jerry
> > killfiled and therefore don't even read his posts,
> > let alone respond to them.
>
> "Rocky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>           > Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
>           > > When you compare using sound and
>           > > praise to solve a problem with using
>           > > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
>           > >  how can you criticize the use of sound?
>
>           > There's nothing more to be said, then.
>           > You've made up your mind.
>
>           > But you've impressed me by mentioning
>           > that you're a professor with 30 years of
>           > experience.
>
>           >  So, can you cite some examples of
>           > people recommending "shock collars,
>           > hanging, and punishment"?
>
> BWWWAWHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
>
>           > --
>           > --Matt.  Rocky's a Dog.
>
> You think matty's playin with a full
> goddamned deck?
>
> matty's NOT a liar and dog abuser.
>
> Isn't that true, Marilyn?
>
> Of course not, but THIS IS:
>
> "Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap,"
>  professora gingold.
>
> "Marshall Dermer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>           > >Di,
>
>           > I don't believe you mentioned a particular
>           > kind of training. If you are interested in
>           > training retrieval behavior than do
>           > consider our own Amy Dahl's:
>
>           > The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a
>           > Well-Mannered,  Obedient and
>           > Enthusiastic Gun Dog in 10 Minutes a
>           > Day by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl
>
> You failed to mention your pals the dahls are
> proven liars and dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF SHAKE:"
>
>            "I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A
>            Dog I Do Not Believe There Is A Single
>            Circumstance Ever, Where Slapping A
>            Dog Is Anything But Destructive,"
>
> LUCKY thing CHIN CHUCK absolutely don't
> mean slap the goddamned dog, we'd look like
> a conspiracy of LIARS and DOG abusers if
> CHIN CHUCK DID mean SLAP the dog.
>
> "I don't see why anyone would want to choke or
> beat a dog, or how any trainer could possibly get
> a good working dog by making them unhapper,
> fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying frosty dahl.
>
> DOES THAT SOUND LIKE THE TRUTH?
>
>           > just $17.95 at Amazon.com.
>
>           > (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
>           > few regulars here who are either ill-
>           > tempered, ill-mannered, or just plain ill.)
>           > --Marshall
>
> Or HOWE about HOWER just plain CRUEL
> STUPID and ABUSIVE DOG ABUSERS,
> professor SCRUFF SHAKE?
>
> amy lying frosty dahl continues:
>
>            "On the other extreme, the really hard dogs
>            we have trained require much more
>            frequent and heavy application of pressure
>           (PAIN j.h.) to get the job done,
>
>           This is continued resistance to your
>           increasing authority, and the job is
>           not done until it is  overcome
>
>           Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper
>           wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher,
>           less tractable dogs may require you to
>           progress to striking them more sharply"
>
> BUT NOBODY DOES THAT HERE...
>
>          "Try pinching the ear between the metal
>          casing and the collar,  even the buckle on
>          the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will
>         give in but will squeal, thrash around, and
>         direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch"
>
> OR ATTACKING HIS ABUSER.
>
>            "You can press the dog's ear with a
>            shotshell instead of your thumb even
>            get a studded collar and pinch the ear
>           against that Make the dog's need to stop
>           the pinching so urgent that resisting your
>           will fades in importance.
>
>            CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever
>            Ready Right Hand, As it catches on, try
>            using the stick and no ear pinch.
>
>           When the dog is digging out to beat the
>           stick and seems totally reliable without
>           any ear pinch, you are finished
>
>            This is continued resistance to your
>            increasing authority, and the job is
>            not done until it is overcome"
>
>           If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly
>           under the chin, say "No! Hold!"
>
>            (stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps
>            because the ear is getting tender, or the
>            dog has decided it isn't worth it)" lying
>            frosty dahl.
>
>            "Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
>             professora gingold.
>
> From: Marshall Dermer ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>           >> -snip headers etc.
>
>           >> Yes. you're right, I really should find
>           >> the book.. they don't have these books
>           >> in the local pet stores I frequent, where
>           >> do you find Koehler?
>
>           > I got a nice large print copy from
>           > Amazon.com
>
>           >Richard
>
>             Please try Powell's Books in Portland
>             Oregon. Their URL is:
>
>                               http://www.powells.com/
>
>             Unlike Amazon.com, Powell's keeps both
>             new and used books on its shelves. You
>             can order books via e-email.
>
>                                Koehler Method Of Dog
>                                Training
>                                by Koehler, W R
>                                Published by HOWELL BOOK
>                                HOUSE (0876056575,
>
> ========================================================
>
> Here's some quotes and some methods right outta your
> koehler book professor "SCRUFF SHAKE and scream "NO!"
> into its face for 5 seconds:"
>
> "The Koehler Method of Dog Training (1962).  New York:
>            Howell Book Book House(p. 52-53)."
>
>            Hanging
>
> "First, the trainer makes certain that the collar and leash are
> more than adequate for any jerk or strain that the dog's most
> frantic actions could cause.  Then he starts to work the dog
> deliberately and fairly to the point where the dog makes his
> grab.
>
> Before the teeth have reached their target,
> the dog, weight permitting, is jerked from
> the ground.
>
> As in coping with some of the afore-mentioned problems
> the dog is suspended in mid-air.
>
>            However, to let the biting dog recover
>            his footing while he still had the strength
>            to renew the attack would be cruelty.
>
>           The only justifiable course is to hold him
>           suspended until he has neither the strength
>           nor inclination to renew the fight.
>
>           When finally it is obvious that he is
>           physically incapable of expressing his
>           resentment and is lowered to the ground,
>          he will probably stagger loop-legged for a
>          few steps, vomit once or twice, and roll
>          over on his side.
>
>          The sight of a dog lying, thick-tongued,
>          on his side, is not pleasant, but do not
>          let it alarm you
>
>            THE REAL "HOOD"
>
>            "If your dog is a real "hood" who would
>            regard the foregoing types of protest as
>           "kid stuff" and would express his
>           resentment of your efforts by biting,
>           your problem is difficult -- and pressing.
>
>            "Professional trainers often get these
>            extreme problems. Nearly always the
>            "protest biter" is the handiwork of a
>            person who, by avoiding situations that
>            the dog might resent, has nurtured the
>            seeds of rebellion and then  cultivated
>           the resultant growth with under correction.
>
>            When these people reap their inevitable
>            and oftentimes painful harvest, they are
>            ready to avail themselves of "the cruel
>            trainer" whose advice they may have
>            once rejected because it was incompatible
>            with the sugary droolings of mealy-
>           mouthed columnists, breed-ring biddies,
>           and dog psychologists who, by the
>           broken skins and broken hearts their
>          misinformation causes, can be proven guilty
>          of the greatest act of cruelty to animals
>          since the dawn of time.
>
>          "With more genuine compassion for the
>          biting dog than would ever be demonstrated
>          by those who are "too kind" to make a
>          correction and certainly with more disregard
>          for his safety, the professional trainer
>          morally feels obligated to perform a "major
>          operation."
>
>           "Since we are presently concerned with
>           the dog that bites in resentment of the
>           demands of training, we will set our
>           example in that situation.  (In a later
>           chapter we will deal with the with the
>           much easier problem of the dog that
>           bites someone other than his master."
>
> Are we havin FUN yet?
>
> Got a lite, professor SCRUFF SHAKE?
>
> The Puppy Wizard. <} : ~  )   >
>
>
>
> "Handsome Jack Morrison"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:52:18 -0400, "Krishur"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >Good books huh?
> >
> > Absolutely.  Some are, in fact, classics.
> >
> > >Which idea was your favorite, the one where they tell you
> > >to alpha roll a "dominant" dog,
> >
> > There's nothing inherently wrong with rolling a dog (i.e.,
> > it *can* and *does* work in *some* situations).
> > Unfortunately, most people either do it incorrectly, do it
> > at the wrong time, etc.
> >
> > >or where they tell you that you didn't hit him hard enough
> > >if he doesn't yelp or approaches you within 5 minutes of
> > >his punishment?
> >
> > If physical discipline is deemed necessary (after careful
> > evaluation), it's much more cruel not to get it over with
> > quickly than it is to do it incrementally and
> > half-heartedly, which usually only invites the need for even
> > more discipline.
> >
> > >Maybe you liked when they recommend these beatings for
> > >housebreaking accidents, chewing/destructive behavior,
> > >stealing, trying to get on your bed
> > >at night and dog on dog aggression.
> >
> > At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating a dog. A
> > swat on the rump or a check to the chin does *not*
> > constitute a "beating."
> >
> > I'm sorry if you don't agree.
> >
> > And each of those behavior "problems" needs to be looked at
> > in its proper context.
> >
> >  A quote from the Monks:
> >
> > "We repeat, these situations may merit physical discipline.
> > Since no book can pretend to analyze every individual dog
> > and situation, we feel obligated to emphasize from the
> > outset that discipline is never an arbitrary training
> > technique to be applied to each and every dog for all
> > offenses. We do, however, believe that physical and verbal
> > discipline can be an effective technique. The best policy if
> > you experience any of the above problems is to consult a
> > qualified trainer or veterinarian for evaluation of your
> > individual situation....
> >
> > "If discipline is decided upon as a training technique, it
> > should be the proper technique.  We feel we have developed
> > several methods that depend less on violent physical force
> > than timing, a flair for drama, and the element of surprise.
> >  We feel an obligation, as responsible trainers, to map out
> > these methods, rather than simply skip the topic because it
> > is unpleasant. Dog owners want to know what to do."
> >
> > In other words, physical discipline is reserved for those
> > serious, special occasions when other methods have failed.
> >
> > For example, they do not recommend using physical discipline
> > for *routine* housebreaking chores -- only on those rare
> > occasions when an already reliably housebroken dog is (after
> > careful evaluation) deemed to be soiling the house on
> > purpose, backsliding, etc.
> >
> > I'll give you an actual example.  Years ago, an adult dog
> > was brought to me as an *incurable* house-soiler.  It was
> > either get the dog reliably housetrained or the dog was
> > going on a one way trip to the pound. Being the kind,
> > compassionate trainer that I am, I was prepared to do
> > whatever it took to get this dog house-trained and save his
> > life.
> >
> > After several weeks of more or less traditional training,
> > and to poor result, I brought out the big guns -- physical
> > and verbal discipline. Whenever the dog soiled the house
> > (no, you don't even have to catch him in the act), I
> > immediately (but very calmly) tossed a leash on his collar,
> > dragged him to the scene of the crime, and (using a large
> > chair as a prop) tethered him to the leg of the chair, with
> > his nose about two inches away from the poop.  After a
> > couple of swats on the rump, some loud vocalizing, and a
> > wait of about 20 minutes, I'd release the dog and then
> > ignore him for a while. I had to repeat this process *three*
> > times, I think -- and the house-soiling miraculously
> > stopped. The dog went home to enjoy a long and contented
> > life with his original owners, and I got to feel good about
> > myself.
> >
> > So, yes, the Monk's books are good ones.  Even for novices.
> >
> > Yup, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
> >
> > -- Handsome Jack Morrison *gently remove the detonator to
> > reply via e-mail
> >
>
>
> "Handsome Jack Morrison"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > On 26 Jul 2003 22:14:29 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (DogStar716)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >>>Never mind dogman :)
> > >>
> > >>You too?  Some folks just never learn.
> > >
> > >Uh huh :)
> >
> > One of the signs of mental illness is to say "Uh huh" a lot.
> >
> > >>PS: If the "trainer" you were talking about isn't on this
> > >>list, he (or she) is NOT an approved Koehler trainer, no
> > >>matter how loud you scream otherwise.
> > >
> > >May I laugh again?  LOL!  One doesn't need to be on a list
> > >to use Koehlers
> > >methods or teach his methods.
> >
> > Let me be among the first (apparently) to tell you that not
> > every trainer who uses a leash is a *Koehler* trainer.
> >
> > Sheesh.
> >
> > This person may call herself a Koehler trainer, but if she's
> > hanging 12 week old puppies, she's about as far from a
> > Koehler trainer as a dog trainer can possibly be.
> >
> > Again, this is just your IGNORANCE showing.
> >
> > I can call myself a devout Christian, but if I'm not
> > adhering to the doctrine, I'm something else.
> >
> > >>http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/patoflearn.html
> > >Sorry, the very first sentences make me aware that whoever
> > >wrote it knows nothing about PR based training:
> > >
> > >"Amidst the current (and politically correct) trend in
> > >Positive Reinforcement
> > >Only training systems"
> > >
> > >You cannot use PR only.
> >
> > Au contraire.  Many, many posters to r.p.d.b. (and many
> > other places as well) *claim* that they use nothing but R.
> > You know, the PPers.
> >
> > And they do it quite loudly, too.
> >
> > Surely you aren't blind (and deaf), as well as ignorant?
> >
> > Those are hard handicaps to overcome, Dogstar.
> >
> > >And if you knew anything about PR BASED training, you would
> > >realize that.  It's not all cookies and babytalk.
> >
> > There is no stronger supporter of R than Handsome Jack
> > Morrison, but I also use every behavioral tool in my bag,
> > including R-, P, and P-, because I know that even R has its
> > limits.
> >
> > You'd know that too, if you didn't have your head in the
> > sand.
> >
> > > But that seems to be the battle cry of the Koehler-ites.
> >
> > The Koehlerites have no battle cry.
> >
> > They have behaviorism on their side, and that's more than
> > enough.
> >
> > >I don't need instruction on how to give my dogs a proper
> > >leash correction as I
> > >do not rely on a leash to control or teach my dog.
> >
> > That may or may not be suitable for your needs, but it's not
> > suitable for the majority of dog owners, especially since
> > the advent of leash laws.
> >
> > Besides, after just a few weeks of proper Koehler training,
> > Koehler dogs likewise are no longer in need of a leash.
> >
> > That you apparently don't know that, once again shows me
> > just how ignorant of anything to do with Koehler you are.
> >
> > >My last two dogs have been trained offleash right from the
> > >start, using rewards for what I like, and nothing for what
> > >I don't like.
> >
> > Good for you, and if that level of training is good enough
> > for you, fine.  But it's not good enough for many of the
> > rest of us.
> >
> > >Again, I'm not saying Koehler doesn't work.
> >
> > I really have no idea what you're saying anymore, because
> > you apparently know so damn little about Koehler and
> > behavioral principles in general that it's hard to have an
> > informed discussion with you.
> >
> > PS: It boggles my mind at how stupid you must be to keep
> > denying that those certain harsh methods are only for LAST
> > RESORT situations, intended only to SAVE A DOG'S LIFE, even
> > after I've repeatedly given you direct *quotes* from
> > Koehler's book saying just that. It's like you don't even
> > care how stupid people think you are, or how devious you
> > are, etc.  That can't help your cause any.  You'd think that
> > you'd at least want to *appear* to be honest, even if you're
> > not. -- Handsome Jack Morrison *gently remove the detonator
> > to reply via e-mail
>
>
> Better report to Soup and update your MENTAL ILLNESS status.
> The Puppy Wizard wouldn't wanna push you over the goddamned
> edge and see you HURT YOURSELF from EMBARASSMENT.
>
> RPD* Mentally Ill AllStaRz as of 7/4/03
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> MENTAL ILLNESS IN RPD*
> Mental illness is a public issue in these newsgroups.
>
> People are always running around calling other people
> mentally ill and diagnosing their illnesses. I think it's only
> fair that we have an accurate list of who is and who isn't
> mentally ill, so that we can avoid any misunderstandings
> and promote group harmony.
>
>
> Updated list as of 7/04/2003:
>
>
> list of confirmed or suspected mentally ill (crazy) Regulars
> Most of whom are women or homosexuals
> =======================================
>
> MaryBeth
> MVP (most valuable psycho)
> (super psycho bitch lunatic
> queen of the mentally fucked
> in the head
>
> Has contributed greatly to the annual profit
> results at several large pharmaceutical corps
> has taken virtually every mentally ill (crazy)
> drug treatment in the book, and then some:
> prozac, zoloft, amitryptiline, Buspar, Xanax,
> effexor, paxil, HRT, wellbutrin, tranquilizers,
> clomid, has suffered from or been:
>
> suicidal, agoraphobic, tidal waves of
> PMS, mood swings, turned into a hermit,
> bloated,  just real angry, hubby afraid
> of her, high blood pressure, divorced, "raving
> bitch"
>
> "zoloft zombie" for four years, "living
> through layers and layers of gauze,"
>
> chain smoker, buzzing, weight gain, fatigue,
> terrible dry mouth, dull headaches, fuzzy brain,
> lack of concentration..etc. severe depression,
> severe insomnia,
>
> Panic ALL the time, crying, not sleeping, you
> name  it...etc...
>
>           MaryBeth (on being seriously f'd in the head
>           aka mentally ill) aka cuckoo! kuckoo! ding! ding! ding!
>           aka a superpsychotic bitch from hell
>
>                           "I know for a fact I went thru years of
>                           being overly sensitive, being a b*tch,
>                           being self centered, being self pitying,
>                           you name it, I was a wreck and I ran
>                           over everyone in my path."
>
> "<G> I do know the power of meds, especially
> on a long term basis, and it's not pretty.
>
> You become another person, if it's not
> the correct med for you.
>
>                           --All the best,
>                             MaryBeth
>
>                           "Yup Diane, I am taking Zoloft, and my
>                           Rheumatologist told me that taking
>                           Ultram with it can cause seizures."
>
> "I have all the symptoms.I am suicidal at
> times (cyclical) have severe insomnia,
> 'crawly' skin etc. I have an appt to see
> my doc next Friday to test for menopause."
>
>                             --MaryBeth
>
> "I noticed that antidepressants cut
> libido into the dead zone and I had no real
> emotions, like not laughing at funny stuff,
> couldn't cry either.....except about my suicidal
> thoughts (but at the time I thought there was no
> other way out)."
>
>                             --MaryBeth
>
> "Hi, new to group, just starting Clomid
> today. I talked with RE and pharmacist re:
> zoloft (50 mg daily) and ineraction with Clomid.
> They reported none. Not sure about the prozac
> tho.
>
>   Gonna poat a new message to intorduce myself :)"
>
>  --MaryBeth <still feeling like herself> <G>
>
>  "I wasted about 10 years of my life, and
> lost many many treasured ppl and things.
> Please don't do the same.
> (((((((SCOUT))))))))))
>
>                             --MaryBeth
>
> "Slowly but surely my depression got
> worse and worse. They put me on meds for it, and
> all along kept telling me to wait on the TKR, as
> 'it really wasn't that bad.....yet". HA!"
>
> The depression got so bad, and lots of other things
> happened and my ex and I would up divorced four
> years after our move. It was horrible.
>
> The hardest thing I have ever gone thru"
>
>                              --MaryBeth
>
>
>
> Theresa Willis             (paxil, depression, robot displacement)
>
> shelly couvrette
>
>  OCD, depression, drugs to be named later
>  (familial mental illness, possibly related to
>  family bed) obsessively starves her dogs
>  according to friends, family, strangers and
>  3 different vets, but not herself
>
> lynn kosmakos              (Lithium, Zoloft, bipolar, manic,
>                              depression) will "put down a biter
>                              as fast as anyone" yet claims to
>                              be a saintly dog rescuer
>
> Leah
>
> Effexor for chronic depression, in denial about being
> mentally ill. Has taken several other mentally ill
> medications before settling on effexor for her chronic
> mental problems
>
> Tara Green
>
>  was on antidepressants for a few years
> prior to her marriage. During her
> marriage, she learned a lot:
>
> "With the therapist I saw during my
> marriage I learned that some situational
> depressions are masked as chemical
> simply because of our too human ability
> to prolong the impact of the causal
> situations indefinitely"
>
>      Sounds like more denial, see leah
>
>
> Tara is also a drunk who has also had
> problems with other substances
>
>  TARA on being a drunk/substance abuser:
>
> "Tara (who had some problems with quite a
> few substances as well, but who thinks they
> are separate issues.....so which camp does
> that put me in???)"
>
>  "Believe it or not, some people don't have
>   a problem with drugs even though they are
>   alcoholics. I'm not one of those people, but they do exist."
>
>                                aka, tara has problems with both
>
> Kevin Michael Vail
>
> various mental illness drugs, started with
> zoloft, didn't like that, then went to
> antidepressant, stopped after sufficent
> side effects, now on SSRI and in therapy
>
> Furpaw                    (SSRI, cognitive therapy)
>
> Chris Jung               (Prozac and Welbutrin, cognitive therapy)
>
> Charlie Wilkes
>
> drugged out, crazy, fucked up all his
> life, Christ the shit he's been through
> including psych wards and electroshock
> treatments but now pulling down major
> cash as a business consultant. Triumphing
> over adversity, with a damn good life and a
> well trained dog (very much unlike Leah)
>
> Karen DuChateaux
> aka Karibear
>
> suffered from clinical depression for
> years until some drug or something brought her
> out of it. Some of her best friends "are certifiable"
> and have various degrees of psychoses.
>
> Familial mental disability.
>
> Refuses to say whether or not she is
> currently using drug or cognitive therapy
> for mental illness.
>
> Mike "DumbOxDumb"  Dufort (pending)
>
>  threatened non violent dog expert Jerry Howe
>  with Mike's fully armed US Army Platoon.
>
> Threatened to bring his platoon to Jerry's
> HOWSE. also OCD (obsessed with Jerry's posts)
>
> Jim Sabatke Jim is currently on Effexor which he takes
> because of his depression/mental problems.
>
> Like many of our mental cases, Jim has
> had trouble finding the right med(s) to keep
> him from going kuckoo!! kuckoooo!!! or
> getting the "brain shivers"
>
> From: Jim Sabatke ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> Subject: Re: anyone using Effexor?
> alt.support.depression.medication
> Date: 2002-11-29 20:25:16 PST
>
> EFFEXOR
> "I'm on 375 mg/day and it has worked
> wonders for me. The only down side is
> that my blood pressure has elevated
> somewhat; oh and if I miss a dose by a
> couple of hours the "brain shivers" can
> be really bad.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Jim"
>
> "I switched from Paxil to Effexor about
> 5 months ago.  I tapered off of the Paxil
> and tapered onto the Effexor at the same
> time."
>
> Jim
>
> "After several years on Effexor IR, my
> pdoc tried switching me to XR.  I
> experienced fairly severe Effexor
> withdrawel until I went back to the IR."
>
> Jim
>
>
> <YOUR NAME GOES HERE>
> (please proudly add your name and the drugs/disorders
> specific to you, if you are also mentally ill). If we all come
> forward, we can help each other with our problems.
>
> Remember, mental illness is nothing to be ashamed of.
>
> It's not your fault if you have a defective brain which
> may cause you to act like an extreme hypocrite and/or
> idiot and/or robot without your being aware of it).
>
> Also, please notify us if you are *not* mentally ill, and
> have been added to this by mistake, so we can make
> our corrections and remove you from the crazy person list.
> --
> mental health weekly
> ===========================================
>
>