Re: Are Islam and Democracy Incompatible?

"Paul R. Mays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> Top Posting because I did not want to
> infringe on a magnificent post...
> 
> SDR,  My compliments, was a extremely
> well developed post and the reprint of
> the review included is so on point it's
> scary.  But I think it falls on deft ears because
> as mentioned the history that we can verify
> by the historical record is not the same history
> the Muslim world knows because the historical
> record is not allowed to be studied in Islam.
> 
> I met a Palestinian girl a while back and had a
> conversation and she told of how her people
> had Always lived in what is now Israel and that
> Jews had Never lived there until the Palestinian's
> were removed by force after WW2.  
> Its this kind
> of education that hold the Muslim world 

 Muslim world or Arab world? 
 
>in
> poverty and despair....  Sad and dangerous
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "SDR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Adrian Dharma Wijaya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>  news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > i was read all your statement, this is my statement:
> > > 1. you are agree with me about christian and jew teaching on they holy
> > > book, arn't you?
> > > 2. you said, christian and jew don't teach again that racialism teaching
> > > of they religion??? don't be kidding!!! what of backgroud of christian
> > > and jew threatment to the world especialy to moslem??? revelation from
> > > holy ghost, if the holy book doesn't as background of they
> > > threatments???
> >
> > I can see you have no familiarity with history. Perhaps you
> > should simply, simply access history textbooks which are available
> > through this very internet and get acquainted with the world's
> > history. You shall discover, just to cite one instance, that when
> > the Spanish conquered the New World the secular/military establishment
> > sought/fought very hard to make the natives slaves; and that it was
> > through the efforts/struggle of the Catholic Church and its priests
> > that this was prevented. [It is also the case that the cause of
> > abolition of slavery in America and elsewhere was primarily, and
> > sometimes, exclusively carried out by the Christian Churches
> > against very powerful commercial/political interests. Please read!]
> >
> > The distinction between West/Islam is fundamental: There may be
> > many Christian criminals but they are not encouraged to their crimes
> > by Christian teachings/institutions. This can not be said of Islam.
> >
> > > 3. moslem teach to do bad threatment to the world??? oh yeah, self
> > > defense of moslem as same as with attacking the world, we can see with
> > > open eyes about the worlds threatment to moslem now a days???
> >
> > Here are a few quotes from easily assessable texts in Usenet
> > (make sure you include the complete URL in your browser):
> >
> >
>  http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3BBFE174.A653EC77%40aol.com&output=gplain
> >
> > If not the most authoritative, at least the most renowned
> > historian of the 20th Century, Will Durant's essay on "The
> > Moslem Conquest" (page 459 of the "Our Oriental Heritage"
> > volume in his massive "Story of Civilization) should suffice
> > to hint at the scale of the human catastrophe that Islam has
> > been to Planet Earth. --Other Usenet quotes of interest here:
> >
> >
>  http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8hkg1u%245k7%241%40nnrp1.deja.com&output=gplain
> >
> >
>  http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8v7nb8%24nas%241%40nnrp1.deja.com&output=gplain
> >
> >
>  http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=932877830.1804%40www.remarq.com&output=gplain
> >
> >
>  http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=933668917.13366%40www.remarq.com&output=gplain
> >
> >
>  
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Bharat-2232.990903%40news.mantra.com&output=gplain
> >
> >
>  
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=5785c0f4.0110022140.7a478f61%40posting.google.com&output=gplain
> >
> >
>  
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=d0197aa3.0110031244.54eb5d50%40posting.google.com&output=gplain
> >
> >
>  
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8ljfag%244um%241%40gnamma.connect.com.au&output=gplain
> >
> > > 4. moslem never have trace now a days from moslem glorious on the
> > > past??? if you study the knowledge on the worlds now a days, you can
> > > track to the past and you can find who are develop that knowledge!!!
> >
> > Sir, Islam was born among the most barbarous/uncivilized nomads
> > on this planet. Do you really believe such brutes would have
> > produced ANY civilized bahavior?!?!?! What Muslims did was to
> > conquer (and destroy for the most part) many ancient civilizations
> > in Egypt/Africa, modern Irag and Persia, and especially in India
> > from which civilizations they "salvaged" a grain of the mountain
> > of knowledge they plundered. If you look carefully at the "Islamic
> > scholars" of the golden age most of them were either slaves or
> > "new converts" (convert or die), and very few of them were Arabs.
> >
> > In any case, to remedy my "unbalanced" approach, and to help
> > satisfy your thirst for a more comprehensive historical view,
> > here's the reprint of a letter sent to Carly Fiorina, CEO of
> > Hewlett Packard Corporation, in response to a speech given by
> > her on September 26, 2001 which you can find at this url:
> >
> > www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/speeches/fiorina/minnesota01.htm
> >
> >              What Arab Civilization?
> >
> > November 7, 2001
> > Carly Fiorina
> > Hewlett-Packard
> > 3000 Hanover Street
> > Palo Alto, CA 94304-1185
> >
> > Dear Madame Fiorina:
> >
> > It is with great interest that I read your
> > speech delivered on September 26, 2001, titled
> > "Technology, Business and Our way of Life:
> > What's Next" [sic]. I was particularly
> > interested in the story you told at the end of
> > your speech, about the Arab/Muslim civilization.
> >
> > As an Assyrian, a non-Arab, Christian native of
> > the Middle East, whose ancestors reach back to
> > 5000 B.C., I wish to clarify some points you
> > made in this little story, and to alert you to
> > the dangers of unwittingly being drawn into the
> > Arabist/Islamist ideology, which seeks to
> > assimilate all cultures and religions into the
> > Arab/Islamic fold.
> >
> > I know you are a very busy woman, but please
> > find ten minutes to read what follows, as it is
> > a perspective that you will not likely get from
> > anywhere else. I will answer some of the
> > specific points you made in your speech, then
> > conclude with a brief perspective on this
> > Arabist/Islamist ideology.
> >
> > Arabs and Muslims appeared on the world scene in
> > 630 A.D., when the armies of Muhammad began
> > their conquest of the Middle East. We should be
> > very clear that this was a military conquest,
> > not a missionary enterprise, and through the use
> > of force, authorized by a declaration of a Jihad
> > against infidels, Arabs/Muslims were able to
> > forcibly convert and assimilate non-Arabs and
> > non-Mulsims into their fold. Very few indigenous
> > communities of the Middle East survived this --
> > primarily Assyrians, Jews, Armenians and Coptics
> > (of Egypt).
> >
> > Having conquered the Middle East, Arabs placed
> > these communities under a Dhimmi (see the book
> > Dhimmi, by Bat Ye'Or) system of governance,
> > where the communities were allowed to rule
> > themselves as religious minorities (Christians,
> > Jews and Zoroastrian). These communities had to
> > pay a tax (called a Jizzya in Arabic) that was,
> > in effect, a penalty for being non-Muslim, and
> > that was typically 80% in times of tolerance and
> > up to 150% in times of oppression. This tax
> > forced many of these communities to convert to
> > Islam, as it was designed to do.
> >
> > You state, "its architects designed buildings
> > that defied gravity." I am not sure what you are
> > referring to, but if you are referring to domes
> > and arches, the fundamental architectural
> > breakthrough of using a parabolic shape instead
> > of a spherical shape for these structures was
> > made by the Assyrians more than 1300 years
> > earlier, as evidenced by their archaeological
> > record.
> >
> > You state, "its mathematicians created the
> > algebra and algorithms that would enable the
> > building of computers, and the creation of
> > encryption." The fundamental basis of modern
> > mathematics had been laid down not hundreds but
> > thousands of years before by Assyrians and
> > Babylonians, who already knew of the concept of
> > zero, of the Pythagorean Theorem, and of many,
> > many other developments expropriated by
> > Arabs/Muslims (see History of Babylonian
> > Mathematics, Neugebauer).
> >
> > You state, "its doctors examined the human body,
> > and found new cures for disease." The
> > overwhelming majority of these doctors (99%)
> > were Assyrians. In the fourth, fifth, and sixth
> > centuries Assyrians began a systematic
> > translation of the Greek body of knowledge into
> > Assyrian. At first they concentrated on the
> > religious works but then quickly moved to
> > science, philosophy and medicine. Socrates,
> > Plato, Aristotle, Galen, and many others were
> > translated into Assyrian, and from Assyrian into
> > Arabic. It is these Arabic translations which
> > the Moors brought with them into Spain, and
> > which the Spaniards translated into Latin and
> > spread throughout Europe, thus igniting the
> > European Renaissance.
> >
> > By the sixth century A.D., Assyrians had begun
> > exporting back to Byzantia their own works on
> > science, philosophy and medicine. In the field
> > of medicine, the Bakhteesho Assyrian family
> > produced nine generations of physicians, and
> > founded the great medical school at Gundeshapur
> > (Iran). Also in the area of medicine, (the
> > Assyrian) Hunayn ibn-Ishaq's textbook on
> > ophthalmology, written in 950 A.D., remained the
> > authoritative source on the subject until 1800
> > A.D.
> >
> > In the area of philosophy, the Assyrian
> > philosopher Job of Edessa developed a physical
> > theory of the universe, in the Assyrian
> > language, that rivaled Aristotle's theory, and
> > that sought to replace matter with forces (a
> > theory that anticipated some ideas in quantum
> > mechanics, such as the spontaneous creation and
> > destruction of matter that occurs in the quantum
> > vacuum).
> >
> > One of the greatest Assyrian achievements of the
> > fourth century was the founding of the first
> > university in the world, the School of Nisibis,
> > which had three departments, theology,
> > philosophy and medicine, and which became a
> > magnet and center of intellectual development in
> > the Middle East. The statutes of the School of
> > Nisibis, which have been preserved, later became
> > the model upon which the first Italian
> > university was based (see The Statutes of the
> > School of Nisibis, by Arthur Voobus).
> >
> > When Arabs and Islam swept through the Middle
> > East in 630 A.D., they encountered 600 years of
> > Assyrian Christian civilization, with a rich
> > heritage, a highly developed culture, and
> > advanced learning institutions. It is this
> > civilization that became the foundation of the
> > Arab civilization.
> >
> > You state, "Its astronomers looked into the
> > heavens, named the stars, and paved the way for
> > space travel and exploration." This is a bit
> > melodramatic. In fact, the astronomers you refer
> > to were not Arabs but Chaldeans and Babylonians
> > (of present day south-Iraq), who for millennia
> > were known as astronomers and astrologers, and
> > who were forcibly Arabized and Islamized -- so
> > rapidly that by 750 A.D. they had disappeared
> > completely.
> >
> > You state, "its writers created thousands of
> > stories. Stories of courage, romance and magic.
> > Its poets wrote of love, when others before them
> > were too steeped in fear to think of such
> > things." There is very little literature in the
> > Arabic language that comes from this period you
> > are referring to (the Koran is the only
> > significant piece of literature), whereas the
> > literary output of the Assyrians and Jews was
> > vast. The third largest corpus of Christian
> > writing, after Latin and Greek, is by the
> > Assyrians in the Assyrian language (also called
> > Syriac); see:
> >
> > http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14408a.htm
> >
> > You state, "when other nations were afraid of
> > ideas, this civilization thrived on them, and
> > kept them alive. When censors threatened to wipe
> > out knowledge from past civilizations, this
> > civilization kept the knowledge alive, and
> > passed it on to others." This is a very
> > important issue you raise, and it goes to the
> > heart of the matter of what Arab/Islamic
> > civilization represents. I reviewed a book
> >
> > http://www.aina.org/aol/peter/greek.htm
> >
> > titled How Greek Science Passed to the Arabs, in
> > which the author lists the significant
> > translators and interpreters of Greek science.
> > Of the 22 scholars listed, 20 were Assyrians, 1
> > was Persian and 1 an Arab. I state at the end of
> > my review: "The salient conclusion which can be
> > drawn from O'Leary's book is that Assyrians
> > played a significant role in the shaping of the
> > Islamic world via the Greek corpus of knowledge.
> > If this is so, one must then ask the question,
> > what happened to the Christian communities which
> > made them lose this great intellectual
> > enterprise which they had established. One can
> > ask this same question of the Arabs. Sadly,
> > O'Leary's book does not answer this question,
> > and we must look elsewhere for the answer." I
> > did not answer this question I posed in the
> > review because it was not the place to answer
> > it, but the answer is very clear, the Christian
> > Assyrian community was drained of its population
> > through forced conversion to Islam (by the
> > Jizzya), and once the community had dwindled
> > below a critical threshold, it ceased producing
> > the scholars that were the intellectual driving
> > force of the Islamic civilization, and that is
> > when the so called "Golden Age of Islam" came to
> > an end (about 850 A.D.).
> >
> > Islam the religion itself was significantly
> > molded by Assyrians and Jews (see Nestorian
> > Influence on Islam and Hagarism: the Making of
> > the Islamic World).
> >
> > Arab/Islamic civilization is not a progressive
> > force, it is a regressive force; it does not
> > give impetus, it retards. The great civilization
> > you describe was not an Arab/Muslim
> > accomplishment, it was an Assyrian
> > accomplishment that Arabs expropriated and
> > subsequently lost when they drained, through the
> > forced conversion of Assyrians to Islam, the
> > source of the intellectual vitality that
> > propelled it. What other Arab/Muslim
> > civilization has risen since? What other
> > Arab/Muslim successes can we cite?
> >
> > You state, "and perhaps we can learn a lesson
> > from his [Suleiman] example: It was leadership
> > based on meritocracy, not inheritance. It was
> > leadership that harnessed the full capabilities
> > of a very diverse population that included
> > Christianity, Islamic, and Jewish traditions."
> >
> > In fact, the Ottomans were extremely oppressive
> > to non-Muslims. For example, young Christian
> > boys were forcefully taken from their families,
> > usually at the age of 8-10, and inducted into
> > the Janissaries, (yeniceri in Turkish) where
> > they were Islamized and made to fight for the
> > Ottoman state. What literary, artistic or
> > scientific achievements of the Ottomans can we
> > point to? We can, on the other hand, point to
> > the genocide of 750,000 Assyrians, 1.5 million
> > Armenians and 400,000 Greeks in World War One by
> > the Kemalist "Young Turk" government. This is
> > the true face of Islam.
> >
> > Arabs/Muslims are engaged in an explicit
> > campaign of destruction and expropriation of
> > cultures and communities, identities and ideas.
> > Wherever Arab/Muslim civilization encounters a
> > non-Arab/Muslim one, it attempts to destroy it
> > (as the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan were
> > destroyed, as Persepolis was destroyed by the
> > Ayotollah Khomenie). This is a pattern that has
> > been recurring since the advent of Islam, 1400
> > years ago, and is amply substantiated by the
> > historical record. If the "foreign" culture
> > cannot be destroyed, then it is expropriated,
> > and revisionist historians claim that it is and
> > was Arab, as is the case of most of the Arab
> > "accomplishments" you cited in your speech. For
> > example, Arab history texts in the Middle East
> > teach that Assyrians were Arabs, a fact that no
> > reputable scholar would assert, and that no
> > living Assyrian would accept. Assyrians first
> > settled Nineveh, one of the major Assyrian
> > cities, in 5000 B.C., which is 5630 years before
> > Arabs came into that area. Even the word 'Arab'
> > is an Assyrian word, meaning "Westerner" (the
> > first written reference to Arabs was by the
> > Assyrian King Sennacherib, 800 B.C., in which he
> > tells of conquering the "ma'rabayeh" --
> > Westerners. See The Might That Was Assyria, by
> > H. W. F. Saggs).
> >
> > Even in America this Arabization policy
> >
> > http://aina.org/releases/2001/arabization.htm
> >
> > continues. On October 27th a coalition of seven
> > Assyrian and Maronite organizations sent an
> > official letter
> >
> > http://www.aina.org/releases/2001/caamletter.htm
> >
> > to the Arab American Institute asking it to stop
> > identifying Assyrians and Maronites as Arabs,
> > which it had been deliberately doing.
> >
> > There are minorities and nations struggling for
> > survival in the Arab/Muslim ocean of the Middle
> > East and Africa (Assyrians, Armenians, Coptics,
> > Jews, southern Sudanese, Ethiopians,
> > Nigerians...), and we must be very sensitive not
> > to unwittingly and inadvertently support Islamic
> > fascism and Arab Imperialism, with their
> > attempts to wipe out all other cultures,
> > religions and civilizations. It is incumbent
> > upon each one of us to do our homework and
> > research when making statements and speeches
> > about these sensitive matters.
> >
> > I hope you found this information enlightening.
> > For more information, refer to the web links
> > below. You may contact me at
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] for further questions.
> >
> > Thank you for your consideration.
> >
> > Peter BetBasoo
> >
> > Web resources:
> >
> > Brief History of Assyrians:
> > http://www.aina.org/aol/peter/brief.htm
> >
> > Assyrian International News Agency:
> > http://www.aina.org/
> >
> > Assyrian American National Federation:
> > http://www.aanf.org/
> >
> > Assyrian Academic Society:
> > http://www.aas.net/
> >
> > Zinda Magazine:
> > http://www.zindamagazine.com/
> >
> > Beth Suryoyo:
> > http://www.bethsuryoyo.com/
> >
> > Nineveh Online:
> > http://www.nineveh.com/
> >
> > World Maronite Union:
> > http://www.maroniteunion.org/
> >
> > Maronite Research Council:
> > http://plaza.powersurfr.com/maronites
> >
> > World Lebanese Organization:
> > http://www.wlo-usa.org/
> >
> > Coptic Web:
> > http://www.copticmail.com/
> >
> > thanks: Peter BetBasoo ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> >
> > > Yeah, i'm confess, moslem live on decline of life on every sector! It's
> > > have complicated reason.
> >
> > It is NOT complicated but extremely simple: Islam is a MIND-
> > CONTROL cult, as if you didn't know, in which it is demanded
> > of every Muslim that they fill their heads with GOD instead
> > of with science and all aspects of humanity (including music
> > which illustrates everything Muslims must NOT think about
> > to be pious Muslims). This is why Islam can NOT progress:
> > it is AGAINST Islam to progress. The highest ideal of Islam is
> > to imitate the life of a ragged warlord who lived over a thousand
> > years ago! THIS is why Muslims are stuck in a world a thousand
> > years behind everybody else. And why it must ever remain so
> > until they free themselves of Islam. Good luck--You'll need it.
> >
> > S D Rodrian
> > http://poems.sdrodrian.com
> > http://physics.sdrodrian.com
> > http://democracy.sdrodrian.com
> >
> > > that caused by moslem leave moslem teaching,
> > > but christian and jew have progress now a days on their life, because
> > > same reason, because christian and jew leave christian and jew their
> > > teaching, there are some verses on the bible and torah said to have or
> > > learn one knowledge god must sacrifice son of god, how much son of god
> > > must be sacrifice with christian and jew from the past until now a days
> > > to pay christian and jew sin about learn so many knowledge, remember
> > > content of Trente concily Italia (1545 - 1563 AD) that forbide christian
> > > to have and learn knowledge and culture.
> > >
> > > SDR wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Adrian Dharma Wijaya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > > > > do you deny all that verses i state on this email???
> > > >
> > > > No! PLEASE re-READ MY REPLY TO YOUR POST (which is included below):
> > > > In sum, I said: No matter what evil either religion may say... that
> > > > evil is repudiated in the Judeo-Christian civilization. If does not
> > > > matter to me whether there are Christian/Jewish terrorists (any
> > > > more than whether there are "Muslim terrorists")... the difference
> > > > is that Jews and Christians do not teach the principles and hatred
> > > > of non-Jews/non-Christians while Muslims DO teach hatred and
> > > > distrust of non-Muslims (in the course of their general education).
> > > >
> > > > > and you deny that
> > > > > verses are background of christian and jew threatment to the
>  worlds???
> > > >
> > > > Not so: READ a little history and you shall discover that the
> > > > Western Powers basically freed their colonies without such colonies
> > > > having to win their independence by means of wars (even India,
> > > > which was SUPREMELY profitable to England, achieved its independence
> > > > primarily by persuasion rather than by war). STUDY the Vietnam War,
> > > > which WAS a violent war against the French, and you shall properly
> > > > learn that the U.S. fought AGAINST the effort to make that country
> > > > a communist colony (the fragmentation of the imagined "communist
> > > > monolith" aside). Now, you tell me... which colony of Islam has ever
> > > > been freed by its Muslim masters. I know it took the Spanish 500 long
> > > > hard years to finally rid themselves of Islamic subjugation.
> > > >
> > > > It is also the West that finally "freed the Arabs" from Turkish
> > > > subjugation (although nobody can really "free" the "damned" Arabs,
> > > > who are obviously "damned by Allah" to eternal subjugation, if not
> > > > foreign then domestic, if not military then religious). And America,
> > > > which after the Second World War "persuaded" Europe to let go
> > > > all its colonies: It is this constant efford to leave barbarity behind
> > > > which is the hallmark of the Western Tradition. There are much
> > > > older Eastern traditions (in China and India) but they stagnated
> > > > while the European one thrived and progressed even under the
> > > > onslaught of the Eastern/Islamic barbarians' invasions.
> > > >
> > > > And it is the progression of history to this date that you should
> > > > follow to learn the legacy of the Judeo-Christian influence on
> > > > the Western Tradition: And that without a doubt, if there is to be
> > > > ANY advancement in Islamic civilization... it shall be due to that
> > > > same Judeo-Christian tradition--Or Islamic "civilization" shall win
> > > > and there shall be no progress whatsoever there (as up to now).
> > > >
> > > > > You said it was do on the past, never do again on now a days???
>  so...
> > > > > from where christian and jew have reason or background of their
> > > > > threatment to the world??? Oh yeah, they have from revelation from
>  holy
> > > > > ghost!!!
> > > >
> > > > Well, I don't know about ghosts (not being particularly
>  superstitious).
> > > > But one need not bother arguing about meaningless OR meaningful
> > > > principles: Simply LOOK at the results YOU CAN SEE: With ALL THE
> > > > MILITARY power to do with "the third world" as they wish, how many
> > > > such third world nations are colonies of the West at this time. And
> > > > if you think this is because it would be "embarrassing" for Great
> > > > Military Powers to exercise their power... you are a child. Israel
> > > > has the power to subjugate all the Arab nations and make ALL Arabs
> > > > their slaves. Surely there must be a reason why Israel doesn't do
> > > > it and thereby become fabulously oil-rich, don't you think? [But I
> > > > imagine you will say they fear the "glorious" Arab Armies.] And you
> > > > don't think many oil companies would not prefer to deal with the
> > > > stability of a single set of Israeli laws rather than with the whims
>  of
> > > > so many "unstable" Arab potentates!? [I imagine not.]
> > > >
> > > > The answer can be summed up in your very attitude, as in the attitude
> > > > of Iraqi ordinary people who are attacking American soldiers (soldiers
> > > > who have given their lives to give them their freedom), attacking them
> > > > for "occupying" their country: These people's attitudes reflect what
> > > > they have been taught to expect would be the reason for foreign troops
> > > > in their country... just as you can expect from this those Iraqi
>  ordinary
> > > > citizens themselves WOULD DO if they were called to be troops in a
> > > > foreign country. They cannot grasp that foreign troops would be there
> > > > for any other purpose than to subjugate and exploit them. And that is
> > > > the difference between the legacy of the Judeo-Christian traditions of
> > > > the American soldiers and the Muslim inheritance of those murderous
> > > > ordinary Iraqi ingrates you would certainly NOT wish EVER to see...
> > > > "freeing" your country.
> > > --