Re: Any anti-abortion atheists?

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 19:48:33 GMT, Gregory A Greenman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>On 2 Dec 2003 09:54:10 -0800, Orhan Orgun 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] said...
>> Gregory A Greenman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>> > On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:31:26 -0500, Osprey 
>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] said...
>> > > 
>> > > "Gregory A Greenman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > > > On 29 Nov 2003 22:42:05 -0800, Steve Dufour
>> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] said...
>> > > > > I've been wondering about this for the last few days.  Are there any
>> > > > > well known people around who are both atheists and are against
>> > > > > abortion?  Thanks.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > I probably don't qualify as well known, but I am a pro-life
>> > > > atheist.
>> > > 
>> > > Question:
>> > > 
>> > > I am pro-life as well; however, I am not atheist.
>> > > 
>> > > I was wondering, why are you pro-life?  How do you view abortion?
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > I believe that if it's alive and it's a human, it should be 
>> > illegal to kill it, (with certain exceptions).
>> > 
>> > I don't see that there's anything magical that happens at 
>> > birth that changes one from not alive to alive or not human 
>> > to human. So, I don't see a reason to make a distinction 
>> > between an 8 month fetus and a one month old baby.
>> 
>> I wish you hadn't said this 8 month business. This is exactly what
>> makes me lose all respect for anti-abortion people. Please, *who* is
>> advocating elective abortions at 8 months?
>
>
>Opponents of a ban on partial birth abortions?

Please, I was begging you not to lie, and what you do is lie more?
*Who* advocates the so-called partial birth proposal as an *elective*
procedure? Who advocates *any* late abortion as an elective (rather
than an emergency medical) procedure? Certainly not the majority of
pro-choice people.

So no, you are absolutely wrong here. I do not know if you are
mistaken or lying, but either way is not helping you.

>
>Anyway, the reason I cited an eight month fetus, is because I 
>was expounding on my point that nothing magical happens at 
>birth that changes the baby from not alive to alive or from 
>not human to human.

Since no one I know of advocates elective abortions up to the moment
of birth, this is an utterly useless point to make.

>> Do you, on the other hand,
>> see the difference between a 3-month fetus and a one month old baby?
>
>
>Assuming that you mean wrt abortion, no. There's nothing 
>magical that happens between month 3 and month 8 that changes 
>a fetus from not human to human or not alive to alive.

There is, however, a lot of gradual changes that accumulate over this
period. You won't be able to draw a crisp line that says, independent
human being after this, and not an independent human being before this
point. This does not preclude looking at a particular point and seeing
quite clearly that you don't have an independent human being at that
point and therefore allowing elective abortions prior to that point.
When you move a little further along, it is quite conceivable you
won't be so sure in your judgment and you'll say, well, it's better to
err on the safe side and not allow routine abortions past that point.
None of this reauires a magical transformation at a specific instant.
Gradual change and a judgment of one particular place along the
continuum that obviously is not an independent human suffices.

If an argument is to be made against all elective abortions, it must
be made against the types of abortion that reasonable people believe
should be allowed as elective procedures (thus, no silly talk of
abortions of eight months of pregnancy), procedures that are used for
such early planned abortions (thus, no silly talk of pornigraphically
named emergency procedures). *Then* one may be inclined to listen to
anti-abortion arguments, rather than just dismiss them for the obvious
reason that they are designed only to distort the facts and mislead
the unsuspicious. I'm serious here. When all one hears is distortions,
lies, and misrepresentations, one becomes inclined to think that there
*are* no reasonable arguments to be made, and if there in fact are
some, well, they just don't get noticed, do they?