Re: What could motivate a god?

Yes you are found to be a liar!

"Mark Richardson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Certainly - is that a problem?

Jesus is reported to have said that all things would be fulfilled and
The Son of Man was to return in the lifetime of those standing before
him - some two thousand years ago - and *still* people are waiting.
I admire patience - it is a virtue - but this is taking it too
ridiculous extremes don't you think?
8-)

Mark.

QOLON NOTE:

A Mathematical Kabbalistic Metaphysical & Regulative Philosophical
Autonomous Model of Time, Information & Reason:
[#51, #66, #77, #37 - Non-Deeming Action/ Administration of Government -
n(n2+1)/2 or (n3+n)/2 = #sum] & Telos (6,000) = Arch (0) + c²


1. Begin/Arch/Genesis ... 22/7 = 3W1D [#13, #12, #29, #69 - Profound Use/
The Function of the Mysterious]
2. Cata {-strophe; -menia; -logue; -chresis} 26J5W [#79, #26, #30, #9 - The
Inconstancy of Achievement/ Practising Placidity]
3. Generation 40J4W [#80, #53, #72, #32 - A Natural Guide/ The Virtue of
Holiness]
4. Torah Law @ Sinai [50J] - 1550 BCE ... [#38, #38, #40, #20 - Left without
Language/ Different From the Vulgar]
5. Hebrew's return from Babylonian Exile & Pythagorean use of YHWH
Tetragrammation [72J] {3(3²+1)/2=[2W1D]} -#3 = 457 BCE ... #10 = 33 CE [#49,
#46, #59, #39 - Achieving Oneness/ The Root of Order]
6. Jesus of Nazareth in 72J71W5D as 30 CE midst 69th Week of [10J] = 490
years - 33 CE ... [#3, #20, #52, #73 - Employing Deeming/ Daring to Act]
7. Telos [122J3W1D] - 6,000 years ... {9(9²+1)/2=[52W5D]} ... #16 = 2056 CE
[#71, #80, #45, #35 - Great Guiding Signs?/ The Virtue of Benevolence]

Synchronisation: #41 Mem = Thursday, 13 September, 2001 [#41, #41, #41,
#41 - Playing with Reversal/ #41, #41 + 2300 days = 31 December, 2007
{vMeme/Moment Democratic Autonomy & Using 'HRUMACHIS' as a Counter Religious
Terrorism Principle}]

- dolf
- http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/telos/meta/cherubim.html#9

Mark this claim" I am not Trolling and have no intention to crosspost",
which is unethically and without justification made by you as an atheist
(ie. a Godless person) to a Christian discussion forum, if your posting
history of 12 Nov 2003 is anything to go by, suggests your posting is a
troll, "Christians and other Monotheists think pagan gods are petty
creatures unworthy of worship - like Sauron - and that God - Yahweh - Allah
is a different order of being altogether.  (why liking one god more than
another makes it any more real - is another topic itself)" [Atheist Mark
Richardson [EMAIL PROTECTED] on alt.religion.christian on 3
December, 2003]

- dolf
- <http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/telos/kabbalah/vkabbalah.html>

From: Mark Richardson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.atheism,alt.recovery.religion
Subject: Re: A Question for Atheists About Charity Organizations.

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[snipped for context]

(Which is why I avoid christian charities - I want to know the money
is being spent on helping people - not converting them )

Mark.

--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau

Member of S.M.A.S.H.
(Sarcastic Middle aged  Atheists with a Sense of Humour)

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On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 14:07:48 +1100, Lawrence Meckan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Mark Richardson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> The topic arises occasionally but often obliquely in religious
>> discussion - I would like an actual thread and get other peoples
>> thoughts on this one.
>> (I originally posted this essay on alt.atheism - "preaching to the
>> un-converted" you might say -  but I wanted to hear if christians have
>> something interesting to say. I am not Trolling and have no intention
>> to crosspost - genuinely interested in hearing your views.)
>> So here it is.
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Gods are described by mythology as willful beings - they *want* people
>> to behave in a certain way so they bribe, threaten, send dreams and
>> visions to get their way.
>> The God of the OT or the Homeric gods being classic examples - very
>> active, meddlesome, willful, vengeful - pleased and displeased with
>> mortals behavior.
>>
>> Then there is the "philosophers God" - remote, abstract, perfect -
>> Aristotle's "unmoved mover".
>>
>> Somehow these two are supposed to be the one and the same thing -
>> which I think is a perfectly insane idea.
>>
>> Depending on the individual believer, their version of God fits
>> somewhere on the broad spectrum from active to passive - from the
>> fundamentalist God that watches very closely what every person on the
>> planet does with their sexual organs and judges them accordingly to
>> the remote and disinterested Deist God.
>>
>> First let me deal briefly with one extreme of this spectrum.
>> To me a god has to be a being with a will - Gravity isn't a god - even
>> though it is powerful and omnipresent and eternal - it treats a gram
>> of matter the same whether it is living or dead or good or evil - it
>> never "decides" to behave one way and not another - so a purely
>> impersonal and uninvolved "god" isn't a god at all as far as I am
>> concerned - its a force of nature - like gravity.
>> (Or for an example in philosophical thought -  the Tao isn't a god.)
>>
>> This is related to the idea of worship - there is no point in
>> "worshiping" or "believing in" a being that has no will - if it cannot
>> react to your praise and send you to paradise or smite your enemies
>> then there is literally no point in worshiping such a being.
>>
>> So a god - at least one that I need consider - must have will.
>
>OK. Does the Bible show that God has will or not ?
>
It certainly seems to say that.
God creates the world and people - interacts with those people in many
ways.

>> A rain god needs the right sort of worship - prayers and sacrifices -
>> or he will become angry and not send the rains and people will starve.
>>
>> Or
>>
>> God needs us to worship his son Jesus (not his real name) or he will
>> not reward us with eternal life in paradise.
>>
>> Why?
>
>Are you sure that's the right perspective ?
>
Its a simplification perhaps a slightly foolish one  - the details
don't matter in a sense.

>It seems a very simplistic and inaccurate rendering of what I see
>relationship with God as being about. You've borrowed too much from the
>fundamentalists for this idea, imho.
>
You are right - but again I don't think it matters in this case.

>> What could motivate a god to *want* things from us and to reward or
>> punish us?
>
>Relationship.
>
But why desire a relationship?
We can feel lonely - but we are not eternal omnipotent and omniscient.

>> Think about Sauron in "Lord of the RIngs" - he wants to destroy
>> everything beautiful and noble and corrupt the world and fill it with
>> his hate and malice.
>> What's his motivation?
>>
>> In the case of petty gods - like Sauron - they have histories - they
>> have personal stories - they have suffered pain and regret and have
>> felt envy and rage and a desire for vengeance.
>> The motivations of Sauron are the motivations of mortals - he is like
>> Stalin or Mao Tse Tung but with great supernatural power - he is ruled
>> by his human pettiness and frailties - he has great power but the
>> emotional stability of a 2 year old having a tantrum.
>>
>> Christians and other Monotheists think pagan gods are petty creatures
>> unworthy of worship - like Sauron - and that God - Yahweh - Allah is a
>> different order of being altogether.
>>  (why liking one god more than another makes it any more real - is
>> another topic itself)
>>
>> But they cant have it both ways - if they reject the idea that their
>> god is a petty creature motivated by mere human emotions and desire -
>> then what motivates them?
>
>How about supernatural emotion and desire? A being knows and
>understands itself, it's just that it's a different level of magnitude
>of understanding to what humanity knows.
>
>The way I see you're approaching this issue is that humanity had
>emotions / thoughts before 'Gods' came into the picture. Yet Genesis
>shows that "God" put part of Himself into what humanity is (including
>emotion, desire, etc..); which remains the other way round to what you
>seem to suggest.
>
So we know love (for example) because God had it (or had the faculty
for it) and gave it to us?

It seems to me that *we* desire company, warmth and comfort because we
are frail mortals - our motivations spring from our natures.
We had mothers.
We were nurtured and cared for as children.

Yet God has no Mother or Father - no childhood memory of pleasure or
pain - no *source* for any motivation.

So to say He provided *our* sources of motivation still seems to beg
the question from my point of view.

>> Don't know? It's a mystery? Never asked yourself the question?
>
>I have asked myself the question a couple of times. You have my answer
>above.
>
OK Thanks for the thoughts - they don't really make sense to me
though.

>> Well I am asking...
>> What *could* *possibly* motivate an eternal, all powerful, all knowing
>> being?
>
>Supernatural emotion / thought / will.
>
>> What could possibly motivate a being such as this to move - to act -
>> to desire some outcome?
>
>Because it is a BEING, it contains independent emotion / thought / will
>*of it's own*. It is not an inert blob of random generic stuff that
>spits out random data randomly. :)
>
But the random blob seems less ridiculous to me than the God that
desires a relationship with mortals.

In fact "random" doesn't require an explanation whereas purposeful
behavior seems to cry out for one.

>The whole philosophical notion of what classifies an entity (of any
>description) as a being is the foundation for any discussion about
>will, action, desires, etc..
>
I agree - but it seems to me that theologians "cheat" by simply
assigning things to be a "part of Gods nature" when they can't find a
reason for something.

>> The whole notion of God falls apart on this question.
>
>I don't think so. I think you're asking the wrong question; because
>you've considered God a "being" and have not ascribed to Him the
>various facets of what makes a "being" a "being" (e.g. will, emotion,
>thought, some manner of independent action).
>
I agree up to a point  - but let us say that (to create a ridiculous
example) christians believed that along with being the creator and
sustainer of the universe who loved and cared for us, sent Jeus to
save us form death ....that he liked a good cup of coffee.

I (the skeptic) come along and say "Why would God like a cup of
coffee?"
Then you simply say "Liking coffee is part of Gods nature.If God didnt
like Coffee he wouldnt BE god he would be some other being"

So your answer can be used to justify any arbitary feature of God.
An answer wich can be used for any ad-hoc attribute that you desire.

Its not the kind of answer I am looking for - it answers everything
and nothing.

>> God has no reason to ever say "let their be light" - we never have to
>> look beyond Genesis chapter one  - the story fails right there.
>
>Genesis was written by man, to man, to talk about God and man.
>
>It's not giving a doctoral thesis on the "reasons" why God said "let
>there be light". It's talking about the understanding and value of life
>and relationship. That is the opening theme of the first few chapters
>of Genesis.
>
Sure I understand.
I was hoping someone could suggest a reason why God would create
anything - and why he would consider it "good".
I know the Bible offers no reason.

>> We never even have to think about "evidence" or "proof" or anything
>> along those lines.
>
>That's because you're asking the wrong question (and/or mixing two
>conflicting ideas in an effort to prove your point regarding what a
>"being" is)
>
>My 0.2 cents. HTH. :)
>
Not a lot - but thanks anyway.

>lawrence
>

Peace,
Mark.

--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau

Member of S.M.A.S.H.
(Sarcastic Middle aged  Atheists with a Sense of Humour)

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