Re: Any anti-abortion atheists?

On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 09:54:11 -0800, 
"Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  Craig Chilton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>  "golddodgearies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>  Craig Chilton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>  Mushinronsha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>>>>>    I am an atheist, and I have a problem accepting abortion.
>>>>> When a fetus grows to the point that it becomes a human being,
>>>>> I think it is wrong to have it's life terminated.

>>>>     They **never** are.  A fetus becomes a human being at the
>>>> moment of BIRTH.

>>>     You stupid lying murderer. They have human parents from
>>> conception.  Non-humans don't have human parents, idiot.

>>     ALL human reproductive-process entities have human parents.
>> INCLUDING the GAMETES that you hypocritically look the other
>> way about even though a *quadrillion* of THOSE potential people
>> are being electively aborted DAILY, worldwide... by men.

>    No gamete can EVER become a person; no more so than oxygen 
> can become water.

     Absolutely wrong.  EVERY person on earth once existed at the gamete
stage -- JUST as much as they existed at the zygote, embryo, and fetus
stages.  And JUST as would be the case if a potential person's zygote
were to die, that potential person NEVER would be born if one or both of
the gametes that were part of his existence in the reproductive process
were to die.

   For example.  In the following scenario, imagine a person living
10,000 years in the future, in a world where all the technology I'm 
about to describe could exist.

   A man gets fed up with a business rival and decides that he not only
wants to get rid of him, but would also would like to undo all of the
damage that the man had done to him over the years.  Just having him
killed would not accomplish the second objective, and also could land him
in a 31st century clink.  So he hops into a time machine and goes back to
the short time frame during which his rival had existed at the gamete
stage.  And seeks out the man's father.  Then he aims a small device at
that man which seems to have no ill effects on the man, himself.  in
fact, ALL that the device does is home in on the specific gamete that was
part of Stage One of his rival's reproductive process.  And vaporizes it.

   The businessman then heads on home to the future, finds his business
thriving, and, indeed, finds that his business rival has never existed.

   So -- NO ethical problem, right?  After all, gametes never become
people, right?

   BOTTOM LINE:  While -- **fortunately** -- NO reproductive entities
really are defensible, when unwanted.  The Bible dosn't indicate
otherwise, and our laws back that position.  But if they WERE, gametes,
which are human, unique, and alive *potential* people would be JUST 
as defensible as Stages 2, 3, and 4.  Thus, wne Anti-Choicers IGNORE
those while *men* are electively aborting them at the rate of a *quad-
rillion* per day, worldwide (compared to a mere 3,300 per day in the 
USA, by women), they are total HYPOCRITES.

>>    Gametes -- just like the other 3 stages -- are human (adj.), living,
>> unique *potential* people.

>    See above.

    By all means... DO see above!

>>    PERSONHOOD... the only thing that COUNTS... 
>> begins at BIRTH.

>Apparently, NOT according to these folks:
>http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2001/06/04/prsb0604.htm.

   NOTE *this* comment from that story:

   "In a dissenting opinion, Justice Robert L. Brown said he 
agreed with the lower court ruling that fetuses are not considered
persons in wrongful death cases and disagreed that the 1999 law 
should be applied retroactively to cover just one case. 

" 'The majority's handling of this critically important social, cultural
and moral issue is muddled," Justice Brown wrote.' "

    And he's exactly RIGHT!

>    What is "birth" in your mind?

    The same as the Bible clearly indicates in its passage dealing 
with BIRTrights, BIRTH order, and first-BORNS:   The beginning of
PERSONHOOD, and the *first* time that a human entity has intrinsic 
value.


                   -- Craig Chilton    [EMAIL PROTECTED]