Re: Supreme Court Damns Gujarat Government Over Riot Case

On 17 Sep 2003 14:11:28 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(nkdatta8839) wrote:

>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Syed) wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>> On 16 Sep 2003 05:29:51 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kshatriya)
>> wrote:
>> 
>> >Fake democracy maybe , corruption and nepotism maybe . But still
>> >anything is better than military rule .
>> 
>> Not always. Ayub in Pakistan developed  lot of business , though he
>> was an army dictator and his own kids were out of control. 
>
>Yes, the Gandhar Industries did do wonders!

Though I won't deny Ayub regimes corruption, still he brought in lots
of industry. Great politician Bhutto destroyed lots of industrial
units. And this is all history. 

>
>"Field Marshal" Ayub Khan celebrated his decade of development
>in 1968. And immediately the people knew who have benefitted the
>most from that decade of development. He can truly claim, "Apres 
>moi, le deluge." If the "Field Marshal" hadn't decreed the 
>elimination of "fake democracy" in 1958, then 1971 would have 
>been a lot kinder on Pakistan. 

1971 was a stupidity concocted by educated Bhutto and alcoholic bum
Yahyaa  and east & west Pakistani public  paid a big price for that. 
>
>> Bhutto
>> gave rights to labor but brought chaos and destroyed business so bad
>> that it still  is recovering out of that shock.  I know one case in
>> Bhutto time( interestingly in Nawaaz Sharif's nationalized foundry)
>> where labor went so roudy, they were not producing anything but were
>> getting free food and even beating engineers for not converting their
>> absence in presence ( A to P) . One engineer was beaten with Re-bars
>> and no one could help him as it was election time and Bhutto has clear
>> instruction to the management , not to touch labour
>> >
>> >The problem is one of accountability.

  Agreed but accountability of politicians is not found in India and
Pakistan . 

>>
>
>General Ziaul Haq's lasting legacy to his country is
>drug trafficking and the Kalashnikov culture. The military
>has done far more harm to the nation than all the civilian
>politicians put together.
>
>> 
>> True
>> 
>> >The military is accountable to
>> >no-one in Pakistan since the judiciary is so weak and open to
>> >manipulation. 
>> 
>> True and false. Judiciary was/is weak in politicians time too, 
>
>Pakistan hasn't had a "politicians time" at least since 
>Ziaul Haq's coup d'etat. 

But Bhutto was responsible for Zia after he rigged the election big
time. Politicians are equally responsible for bringing in the army by
their illegal activities and corruption. 

>The military has ruled with an
>iron hand continuously for the last quarter of a century, 
>sometimes directly, and sometimes behind a civilian facade
>for the government.
>
>> just
>> like Indian Gujarat Judiciary , bowed down to "Modi" . Indian Supreme
>> court has shown some muscle but this is only first round of their bout
>> with BJP. Let's watch the whole boxing match and  see who comes out 
>> winner. 
>> 
>> >The emergency happened in India but the difference was
>> >That the press fought tooth and nail against it, and people never
>> >Accepted it. 
>> 
>> Due credit goes to media, still played impartial enough role in
>> Gujarat Fiasco. 
>> 
>> >The army also never took sides in the whole thing. The
>> >thing which really broke emergency was the non-violent protest led by
>> >Jaiprakash Narayan , and the Judiciary.
>> 
>> Didn't do enough research on  Indian  democracy but will agree if you
>> are sure. 
>> 
>> >
>> >Maybe its time that people in Pakistan stopped relying on USA to end
>> >military rule and start a non-violent movement like J.P against
>> >military rule the next time it happens.
>> 
>> Non-Violent is a good idea but I dont have much trust in politicians
>> sitting in the wings either . 
>
>Their coming to power under democracy cannot,
>by any stretch of imagination, be worse than 
>the military ruling with unfettered powers,
>responsible to no one but itself.


As I said before in India and Pakistan once a politician is in power,
he becomes untouchable for judiciary like your Advani, GOT scotch free
in babri mosque and Modi IN Gujarat planned killing under the
sposorship of this murderer, no one could do nothing to this world
recognized murderer. Only now supreme court only recently  dared to
ask his resignation, which has been denied by Modi and top  BJP
hunchmen with a big NO. 


> 
>If democracy gets restored, at least, the voters 
>will be able to decide at regular intervals whether 
>the current government deserves to win another
>term or not.


Technically  you are right but by the time, voters got some sense,
nation may have been indebted  for billions and may even be destroyed.

  
> 
>> Pakistan at present do not have a mature
>> political force, especially that 'Molvi Fazal-ur-Rehman"  I been told
>> , he is very corrupt and was on the pay roll of another corrupt
>> politician "Kher" who gave him free WAPDA car with driver to go enjoy
>> while Kher was power minister and many  other stories like that of
>> him. 
>> I heard  Kher took five cars from water and power ministry( WAPDA) ,
>> two for his personal use, one for his wife , one air-condition Toyota
>> hi-ace(seats removed) for his dogs and one he gave to  molvi  Fazal
>> -ur-Rehman. 
>> 
>
>WAPDA has been too important to be left under civilian
>management!! WAPDA has had a military CEO for a very 
>long time. There are many a story about water and 
>power supply for the pecuniary benefits to current 
>and retired army officers who have turned into a
>significant landowning class. 

Politicians also looted WAPDA with open hands. Even senior politician
Nawabzada "Hooqqaa" Khan  owed lakhs in unpaid bills but his
electricity was never dared cut  at any time. 


>Needless to say,
>the military is very zealously guarding its perks
>and privileges - 

You mean politicians did not. In India and Pakistan , government
property is taken as  " loot kaa maal" and no one from top to bottom
has a concept that it is  ours. And only we will pay if it is looted. 



it will not allow such a trifle as 
>voters' wrath to affect its fortunes in any way. 
>
>It is the army in Pakistan that decides who gets to 
>steal in Pakistan and how much. The military is 
>determined to retain that privilege even if it opts
>for exercising power behind a civilian facade.


Then why in democratic India Fernandez and top military brass was
making millions in commission and they are still in power. Humans
specially on Indo-Pak are generally corrupt  while Indians and
Pakistanis a bit more then the rest of the world.