Re: Free will as a kind of determinism.

>I'm not understanding this conclusion, nor how these steps led you to it.  I
>am of the opinion that there has been a choice made in each of your
>examples, with different reasoning for each.  In the first the child chooses
>to wash the plates in lieu of continued beating.  In the second, the child
>chooses to wash the plates to avoid another beating.  The third is, in my
>educated opinion, is absurd since any child who has been truly beaten will
>never forget the beating, nor the person who levied that force.  The fourth
>makes even less sense to me.  Are you saying that if one enjoys doing
>something, he no longer has to choose to do it?
>
>Also, "determinism" is defined by Webster as "the philosophical doctrine
>that every state of affairs, including every human event, act, and decision
>is the inevitable consequence of antecedent states of affairs."  In other
>words, A+B=C.  For instance, a child grows up in a violent environment and
>becomes a violent offender when he grows up.  If you've been following other
>threads in this forum, you'll see that it is well-documented that while this
>is not the norm.  While such linear thinking seems logical on the surface,
>but is very easily dismissed upon more intense scrutiny, which is why I
>choose not to subscribe to the deterministic doctrine.


Gina, I have argued elsewhere that determinism is itself a 'free-choice'. Some
might argue that this 'begs the question' by pressupposing the very thing that
determinism denies (i.e., that there is such a thing as 'agent-causation' that
rides above and beyond deterministic forces) but I argue it is a 'free-choice'
in so far as we 'could-have-choosen-otherwise'. I also 'choose' free-will. 


>Gina M Dent
>"Nature does not deal in rewards or punishments, but only in consequences."
>(Robert Ingersoll)
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>"Sufurv" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Free will is the third stage of persons development.
>> 1. Mother shouts and beats a child to force it to wash plates and
>> dishes after eating. It is the direct force ( will is absent ).
>> 2. Mother is absent at home but the child remembers her force and
>> washes the plates. It is will.
>> 3. Mother is absent at home and the child does not remember her force
>> but it washes the plates. It is free will.
>> 4. The child loves to wash the plates and it wants to become a
>> dish-washer. It is a motive ( will is absent ).
>> All those are the kinds of carrying out an order. The phrase - the
>> choice between free-will and determinism - is nonsense, because free
>> will is a kind of determinism.
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Mickeyd