Re: Quantum chaos and fractals in experience?

Hi everyone,

The potential relationships between the phenomena of quantum chaos,
fractals and human experience are quite challenging and controversial
ones and remain to be established. The only  article I am aware of that
directly and at length deals with the possible relationship between
fractal(-like) phenomena and perceptual (first-person) experience is one
I've written some years ago:

Stamenov, M. 1996. The fractal-like roots of mind: A tutorial in direct
access. In Earl Mac Cormac & M. Stamenov (Eds.) Fractals of Brain,
Fractals of Mind (pp. 273-322). Amsterdam & Philadelphia: John Benjamins.

Unless one makes an attempt to show how quantum chaos and/or
(multi)fractal(-like) structures may become acessible as certain
phenomena of first-person human experience here-and-now, the link to
consciousness would remain highly speculative not only for rats but for
humans as well.

Best regards,

Maxim Stamenov



Robert Karl Stonjek wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stuart Hameroff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 6:15 AM
> Subject: Quantum chaos in the rat ventral tegmentum?
>
>
>
>
> > Hi everyone
> >
> > This abstract (below) appeared on the Physics Archives, referring to a
> paper in
>
>
> > the International Journal of Modern Physics. It's from a Russian group and
> > reports on electrophysiological measurement from ventral tegmentum in
> rats.
>
>
> > They claim mathematical analysis of the interspike frequencies match a
> model
>
>
> > for quantum chaos, supporting a quantum nature (at least partially) of
> brain
>
>
> > activity. I dont understand this mathematical argument, being more
> involved in
>
>
> > intracellular activities. Perhaps someone might be able to elaborate,
> refute or
>
>
> > comment.
> >
> > Happy Thanksgiving (to US listmembers anyway)
> >
> > best
> > Stuart Hameroff
> >
> >
> > Brain neurons as quantum computers: in vivo support of background
> > physics
> > A.Bershadskii, E. Dremencov, J. Bershadskii, G. Yadid
> > Int. J. Mod. Phys., C, 14, #7, (2003) 1
> RKS:
> The paper can be downloaded at the following address:-
> http://arxiv.org/pdf/q-bio.NC/0311026
> [PDF, 12 pages, 184k]
>
> The first thing we should note is that there is no connection made with
> either quantum events or consciousness in the paper.  What the researchers
> try to establish is that there are some patterns of neuronal firing that are
> similar to multifractal patterns observed in 'quantum chaos'.
>
> Such patterns have been observed in nature with no other fundamental
> connection than the mathematics that describes those patterns.  Fibonacci
> patterns are found in widely distributed and unrelated phenomena.  The
> Fractal nature (fractional dimensions) of ordinary phenomena has been also
> widely observed and applied generally and specifically to a wide variety of
> phenomena.
>
> It is noteworthy that the multifractal quantum patterns mentioned are
> derived from mathematics first describing macroscopic phenomena.  Non-linear
> mathematics describes many phenomena that are not directly influenced by
> quantum level phenomena.
>
> It could be argued that all phenomena is ultimately mediated by quantum
> events, however quantum consciousness assumes a direct link between quantum
> events and consciousness, that is, not the hierarchy of:-
> quantum particles make up atoms that make up molecules that make up complex
> organic compounds that make up cells (neurons) that make networks that make
> up modules that makes up the brain that gives rise to consciousness
> or
> consciousness can be described/explained in terms of the brain that can be
> described in terms of modules that can be described in terms of networks etc
> and eventually to quantum events.
>
> Instead, quantum consciousness advocates assume that some quantum phenomena
> (such as superposition of states, entanglement, etc) are responsible for
> some (or all) aspects of consciousness.
>
> Building on the paper, a researcher must show that the patterns observed are
> the results of quantum events and not of some general patterns (such as
> described by non-linear maths) that apply to many phenomena that happen
> include quantum and neuronal events,  and it must be shown that one is
> dependant on the other.
>
> Upon establishing that, the neural events must then be associated with
> consciousness.  Note that the rats were anaesthetised and so not conscious
> at the time the measurements of the spike trains were made.  The brain area
> mentioned, the Ventral Tegmental Area, must be shown to be a foundation
> stone of consciousness, or at least strongly associated with it.
>
> That rats are conscious at all (in the human subjective sense, ie
> phenomenally conscious) is a strongly contested point at present.
>
> Having made all these linkages, a researcher must then show that the
> patterns are relevant and not just incidental.  An incidental attribute
> might be the shape of a neuron.  That neurons have some shape does not mean
> that that shape has anything to do with consciousness.
>
> There may be many firing patterns that can achieve the same result. The
> pattern observed may be so because of quantum events, as the authors hope,
> but this may only mean that of the many possible patterns, organic matter
> defaults to some particular pattern because of some quantum influence.
>
> This would mean that the quantum events select the pattern (from all the
> possible patterns that could serve the same purpose) but this has no
> influence over the functioning of the brain.  In other words, an electronic
> version might achieve the same result by choosing some other firing pattern
> that achieves the same result.
>
> Thus, that the patterns exist is interesting, but this is only a tiny step
> and in no particular direction as yet.  Plenty of work to do, even to get to
> first base.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Robert Karl Stonjek.
>
> .