Re: Quantum chaos in the rat ventral tegmentum?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart Hameroff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 6:15 AM
Subject: Quantum chaos in the rat ventral tegmentum?


> Hi everyone
>
> This abstract (below) appeared on the Physics Archives, referring to a
paper in
> the International Journal of Modern Physics. It's from a Russian group and
> reports on electrophysiological measurement from ventral tegmentum in
rats.
> They claim mathematical analysis of the interspike frequencies match a
model
> for quantum chaos, supporting a quantum nature (at least partially) of
brain
> activity. I dont understand this mathematical argument, being more
involved in
> intracellular activities. Perhaps someone might be able to elaborate,
refute or
> comment.
>
> Happy Thanksgiving (to US listmembers anyway)
>
> best
> Stuart Hameroff
>
>
> Brain neurons as quantum computers: in vivo support of background
> physics
> A.Bershadskii, E. Dremencov, J. Bershadskii, G. Yadid
> Int. J. Mod. Phys., C, 14, #7, (2003) 1
>
>
RKS:
The paper can be downloaded at the following address:-
http://arxiv.org/pdf/q-bio.NC/0311026
[PDF, 12 pages, 184k]

The first thing we should note is that there is no connection made with
either quantum events or consciousness in the paper.  What the researchers
try to establish is that there are some patterns of neuronal firing that are
similar to multifractal patterns observed in 'quantum chaos'.

Such patterns have been observed in nature with no other fundamental
connection than the mathematics that describes those patterns.  Fibonacci
patterns are found in widely distributed and unrelated phenomena.  The
Fractal nature (fractional dimensions) of ordinary phenomena has been also
widely observed and applied generally and specifically to a wide variety of
phenomena.

It is noteworthy that the multifractal quantum patterns mentioned are
derived from mathematics first describing macroscopic phenomena.  Non-linear
mathematics describes many phenomena that are not directly influenced by
quantum level phenomena.

It could be argued that all phenomena is ultimately mediated by quantum
events, however quantum consciousness assumes a direct link between quantum
events and consciousness, that is, not the hierarchy of:-
quantum particles make up atoms that make up molecules that make up complex
organic compounds that make up cells (neurons) that make networks that make
up modules that makes up the brain that gives rise to consciousness
or
consciousness can be described/explained in terms of the brain that can be
described in terms of modules that can be described in terms of networks etc
and eventually to quantum events.

Instead, quantum consciousness advocates assume that some quantum phenomena
(such as superposition of states, entanglement, etc) are responsible for
some (or all) aspects of consciousness.

Building on the paper, a researcher must show that the patterns observed are
the results of quantum events and not of some general patterns (such as
described by non-linear maths) that apply to many phenomena that happen
include quantum and neuronal events,  and it must be shown that one is
dependant on the other.

Upon establishing that, the neural events must then be associated with
consciousness.  Note that the rats were anaesthetised and so not conscious
at the time the measurements of the spike trains were made.  The brain area
mentioned, the Ventral Tegmental Area, must be shown to be a foundation
stone of consciousness, or at least strongly associated with it.

That rats are conscious at all (in the human subjective sense, ie
phenomenally conscious) is a strongly contested point at present.

Having made all these linkages, a researcher must then show that the
patterns are relevant and not just incidental.  An incidental attribute
might be the shape of a neuron.  That neurons have some shape does not mean
that that shape has anything to do with consciousness.

There may be many firing patterns that can achieve the same result. The
pattern observed may be so because of quantum events, as the authors hope,
but this may only mean that of the many possible patterns, organic matter
defaults to some particular pattern because of some quantum influence.

This would mean that the quantum events select the pattern (from all the
possible patterns that could serve the same purpose) but this has no
influence over the functioning of the brain.  In other words, an electronic
version might achieve the same result by choosing some other firing pattern
that achieves the same result.

Thus, that the patterns exist is interesting, but this is only a tiny step
and in no particular direction as yet.  Plenty of work to do, even to get to
first base.

Kind Regards,
Robert Karl Stonjek.