Re: Answers From The Grave

"Ian St. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> "George" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/26/60minutes/main585798.shtml
> >
> > CBS) While no evidence of weapons of mass destruction has yet been found
> in
> > Iraq, evidence of mass murder is everywhere.
>
> False. There are evidence of death, but murder must include situational
> factors that are unproven. The 375,000 estimated casualties from the
> Iran/Iraq warwar undoubtably constitute the bulk of the bodies which have
> been unearthed in this political 'witch hunt'.
>
> >
> > The evidence? Mass graves scattered throughout the country where
families
> of
> > victims have been trying to find the remains of some 300,000 Iraqis who
> > disappeared during the Saddam regime.
>
> Evidence? You woyuld need a total of about 700,000 bodies to account for
> such a claim as well as war casualties. The graves found so far are not
> sufficient to support this contention.

How do you know there were 300,000 Iraqi casualties from the Iran/Iraq war?
What is your source for that information?  Don't you think the relatives
would know if their loved ones had fought and died in the war?

> > Forensic experts hope DNA samples from the graves eventually may provide
> the
> > clues to just who these victims were before Saddam consigned them to
> > unmarked graves. Correspondent Scott Pelley reports.
>
> Demonstrating that no actual forensic identification of identity or cause
> has been made.

Some identifications have been made.  Obviously with the immensity of the
work in front of them, they have their work cut out for them.

> >
> > A mass grave found after the war in al-Hilla, south of Baghdad, is a
> > mountain of misery.
> >
> > When word got out, families swarmed over the grave. There were about
2,000
> > bodies. One by one, they wrestled with the dead -- searching for
> something,
> > anything familiar -- a sweater that might have been his father's years
> ago.
> > An I.D. card -- but for which body?
>
> Even in the U.S. there are thosands going 'missing' every year. The
> assumption that everyone that is unaccounted for must have been murdered
by
> Saddam has been assiduously fostered by the U.S. propaganda arm. Iraqis,
> predomoinantly Shiites who felt unrepresented during the Saddam reign
would
> naturally take such an explanation, especially when given free
> transportation to the site.

That's bullshit.  If I had lived in Iraq, and my wife had disappeared after
a group of people associated with the government had come in the night and
taken her, do you think I would just shrug my shoulders and say "she died
for her country"?  No.  If I had the chance I would tell what happened and
hope that I could find out where she was taken, what happened to her.  This
is undoubtedly what the vast majority of people want to know - what happened
to their people, and where they are.  And I would definitely be thanking
those who took me to the site.

It's disgusting how dispassionately you can shrug off what has happened
there, and discount everything that is said as an American conspiracy,
despite the fact that neither YOU nor ANYONE else has the least bit of
evidence to support your bullshit apologetic excuses for the actions of
Saddam Hussein, his sons, and their murderers.  It indicates the
psychopathetic nature of your illness.  You should see a doctor.

> >
> > It was a panic that smelled of earth and death. It wasn't quite possible
> to
> > believe the hideous mass of it all. Some were nearly paralyzed by the
> horror
> > of it, and by the near certainty that the bones would never be
identified.
>
> Not true. Bones contain cells that can be used for dna comparisons to
living
> relatives.

Do you think an uneducated Iraqi tribal member understands that?  They are
frightened, distraught, and very angry.  Do you think I made this shit up?
Its a news report, dork!

>It will probably take a while but once enough evidence
> accumulates to identify the majority as war casualties, the hysteria will
> die down, and the 'tug at your heartstrings' propaganda value will
> duisappear.

Just like in the Balkans?  You are a heartless bastard.  But I guess you
knew that already.

> >
> > There was only one thing the families could be sure of - if their loved
> ones
> > were here, they died in terror. Many of the blindfolds were still in
> place.
>
> Blindfolds were found on a small minority of graves, probably executions
of
> rebels from the Shhite rebellion.

You were there, right?  The reporter was there, and saw them, and
photographed them, dumbass.

> >
> > "I found thousand and thousands of blindfolded disfigured bodies. I
found
> > skeleton systems belonging to a crippled man, belonging to child, small
> > skulls," says Mohammed Haider, who searched for his grandfather, Sheik
> > Haider, in the al-Hilla grave last May.
>
> All blindfolded bodies that I have seen were of adult males

You were there, right?  You saw them with your eyes, right?  You looked at
every body to make that determination.

>, likely
> fighters.

An assumption on your part, based on what?  The forensic evidence you keep
saying that you are waiting for?

The deaths of women and children in the fighting would be termed
> 'collateral damage'. A term which seenms to sanitise the tens of thousands
> of casualtues from the American "shock and awe" terror campaign.

More of your "forensic evidence"?  A bullet wound made at point blank range
in the head of a blindfolded person can hardly be termed "collateral
damage".

> >
> > Sheik Haider was a cleric who was critical of Saddam, and in 1991, he
was
> > picked up by the secret police. Mohammed thought he might be able to
find
> > his body by searching for his grandfather's turban and clothes, and
seeing
> > if he could find a skull with two false teeth.
>
> Or he emigrated as an exile to America. Hard to say with these claims and
> allegations.

Or not.

> >
> > "This is arbitrary searching, this is arbitrary exploring," says
Mohammad
> > Haider.
> >
> > "Arbitrary exploring" turned up nothing for Mohammed. His grandfather is
> one
> > of thousands, undiscovered or unclaimed without a prayer of being
> > identified -- until now.
>
> He is a unlikely to find the fate of a relative from randomsearches this
way
> as you would be looking in arlington cemetary for you long lost uncle that
> you be looking in Arlington cemetary for your dear old uncle that
> disappeared after being questioned by the cia for his involvement with Al
> Quaeda.

More forensic evidence?

>
> >
> > Jim Kimsey, the founder of AOL, landed in Iraq this summer to bring
> > technology to the tragedy. Kimsey retired from AOL, and is now a sort of
a
> > patron millionaire of lost causes. It started back when he was an Army
> > Ranger in Vietnam. He opened an orphanage that he still supports today.
>
> Sounds like a nice guy.

I'm sure he is.  Certainly a much nicer guy than you are.  He at least has
the guts the recognize human suffering and spend his own money trying to
alleviate it.  All you care about is making political points off of the
suffering of others.

>
> >
> > Two years ago, Kimsey volunteered to head something called the
> International
> > Commission for Missing Persons. The U.S. Government helped set it up to
> > identify victims of genocide in the Balkans back in the 1990's.
> >
> > Is it possible that they will be able to identify the bones they've
> > discovered so far?
> <snip>
> >
> > "These are a portion of the bodies uncovered in mass graves," says Ed
> > Huffine, the chief scientist on the commission.
> >
> > There are more than 4,000 bodies in here from just one 1995 massacre in
> > Srebrenica. Kimsey's commission built a morgue and others like it, and
the
> > work is funded mostly by the U.S. with donations from twelve other
> > countries. The morgue was originally designed to hold 800 body bags, but
> > they've had to stack them up to the ceiling.
>
> And after identification, the evidence can be assessed.
>
> P.S. It is unclear how the ethic cleansing of the balkans (mostly
committed
> by serbian commanders in the field) relates to claims of Saddam Hussein
> authorizing murder.

P.S.  If you read the article in its entirety, then surely you came across
the part of the article that describes how this same group, led by Kimsey,
is setting up the same sort of facilities in Iraq that were set up in the
Balkans in order to help identify these people.  Only on a larger scale.

> >
> > "Clearly it's a grizzly scene," says Kimsey. "The people or victims here
> > have been murdered and put in one gravesite and then exhumed and carried
> up
> > to this one."
>
> This is getting ahead of the evidence. Execution is a term that may be
more
> appropriate, Until identification of body and circumstance there is
nothing
> to base claims of muder on.

He and his people are the forensic people you've been waiting for, dumbass.
Now you can't even take their word for  it, you gutless shitass.

>
> >
> > Why were they moved from one place to this?
>
> Likely for the same reason that bodies in the U.S. are not buried where
they
> fall. Duuuuhhhh.

They were moved twice.

> >
> > "To conceal them. This, as you can tell, is a very remote place and
they,
> > the perpetrators, obviously were fearful that the original site would be
> > found, so they brought them up here hoping that the site would not be
> >  found," says Kimsey. "Some of the bodies have been burned and mutilated
> to
> > try and delay identification."
>
> Why would they do so if the deaths were state sanctioned murders?

To conceal their guilt.  Murder is murder, whether it is state sanctioned or
not.  You like to cite international law, so you should know this.  In
Rhwanda, the genocide there was sanctioned, and yet many bvodies were
through into the local rivers to dispose of them.  Why would they do that if
they weren't trying to hide them?

>More likely they were burned and mutilated in the military action. Iran is
known
> to have used napalm as well as bombs.

You have all the answers, right?

>
> >
> > But none of that -- the burning, mutilation or time in the ground -- 
will
> > take away the DNA. Kimsey's scientists are using DNA technology on a
scale
> > like the world has never seen. They grind the bones and extract the
> genetic
> > code that makes each victim unique. But that is only half of the puzzle.
> > They still need to match the DNA from the bones to a family.
> >
> > The matching piece of the puzzle is in a drop of blood. Through a
massive
> > outreach program, families of the lost are giving blood, hoping that
their
> > DNA will match one of the bones. Approximately 43,000 families have
> donated
> > blood so far. Huffine told 60 Minutes that this vast database makes the
> > impossible -- easy.
>
> This shold work, but yiou also need to search public records to identify
the
> circumstances surrounding death, such as military service. It is not
enough
> just to determine that the persoon died. We ALL die at some point.

Well, it would certainly do us all a favor if it was your turn to die.

> >
> > Huffine says it takes about three to five seconds to perform a complete
> > search for each victim of all 43,000 profiles in the computer.
>
> But a lot longer for the dna analysis itself.

Duh.  You have a real knack for stating the obvious.

> >
> > Before, the DNA program they were identifying about 100 victims a year.
> But
> > now, they're identifying close to 200 a month.
>
> So for 300,000 war dead you would need about 125 years... Talk about job
> security!!

He's talking about the Balkans, dork!  In Iraq they are planning many more
facilities than they have in the Balkans because there are so many more
victims.  And I suppose with your extensive forensic expertise (NOT!), you
can do better?

>
> So far, the whole thing seems to be an orchestrated propaganda campaing to
> create a public witch hunt of Saddam Hussein without any real evidence,
> similar to the establishment of aIraqi participation in 9/11 despite
> extensive evidence that they were NOT involved. This is really about a
last
> ditch attempt by the U.S. to create a 'post facto' "pretext" foir the war
as
> 'global policeman'. It is likely  to fail in the same manner as prevcious
> pretextrs and for the same reason. It amounts to bullshit and bafflegab,
> which will lose credibility over time as facts surface.
>
> By the way, it is off topic for both groups it is posted to. How's that
for
> trolling?
>

How about you taking some moving to Cinncinnati, taking some PCP and
cocaine, and punching out some policemen so they can beat you to death?
I'll even provide the plane ticket and the batons!