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TURMEL: #2 Robin Hood Raid on Casino Turmel Trial Transcript



JCT: Since the Project Robin Hood raid on Casino Turmel case was
brought up in the Big Five Marijuana appeals at the Ontario 
Court of Appeal recently arguing against judges imposing new 
criminal sanctions, rather than Parliament, I've decided to to 
publish the transcripts of the trial on the biggest gaming house 
raid in Canadian, probably world, history. 28 tables/155 dealers. 
See: http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel/gambler.htm 

19930806
#93-18193
              ONTARIO COURT (PROVINCIAL DIVISION)               
                     HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN
                            against
                          JOHN TURMEL
                          **********
              MOTION TO QUASH FOR INSUFFICIENCY
        HELD BEFORE THE HONOURABLE JUDGE J.D. NADELLE
            on August 6, 1993 at Ottawa, Ontario.
                          **********
            CHARGE:  S. 201(1)
           CHARGE:  S. 201(1) (2 counts), C.C.
                    S. 202(1)(e), C.C.
                    S. 202(1)(c), C.C.
                              **********
APPEARANCES:
A. Marin, Esq. Crown Counsel
M. Edelson Appearing for Defence
     
[continued]

Edelson: And His Honour leaves and he comes back and this is 
where, in my submission, His Honour does make a very important 
and significant distinction, while at the same time not properly 
reading Milberg:

"I want to point out that the charges have to do with being 
found, which is the operative word, in count one in a gaming 
house, count number two in a betting house. This, in my opinion, 
is significant for this reason: When one compresses that with the 
old section 185(1) of the code, which is keeping a gaming house 
or a betting house, one can see in 85(1) the gravamen of the 
offence is the keeping of the house in question, that is carrying 
out the operation. Clearly, where 185(1) is charged and is 
directed at the operator, as it were, it, no doubt, would be 
highly significant to the accused to knowing what manner of all 
of those set out by counsel in argument he's alleged to have been 
keeping the house. Section 185(2), however, that is, the found-in 
section, presents as the gravamen of the offence merely the act 
of being found in the place without lawful excuse. The thrust of 
the charge is not directed toward how the operation is carried 
because they are not charged with that. They are merely charged 
with being found in the place where some activity is going on and 
in my opinion, the use of those words in 185(2) is merely 
descriptive of the premises and need not go further. I believe 
the distinction is a valid distinction and I repeat, the gravamen 
of the offence in 185(2) is being found in the place without 
lawful excuse." 

So what I say, Your Honour, is he draws that key distinction. His 
Honour sees the difference between being a found-in and being a 
keeper is a key and His Honour says, I say inferentially and 
implicitly, that had it been different, in other words,had it 
been keeper, that he might well have quashed the information 
because he's saying at that point, it would be important to know 
how the operation is carried out, but, he says, in this case, 
they're not charged with that. He said: "I believe the 
distinction is a valid one. I have read the decisions in Bingo 
and Wilson. I've had a quick look again at Wiz and a very broad, 
all encompassing decision again at Harvey Milberg et al." 

He goes on to talk about the binding authority of the Court of 
Appeal. He says: "I'm bound my Milberg and the statements there 
of Mr. Justice Robins with respect to his own respectful 
disagreement with Bingo Enterprises in the Manitoba Court of 
Appeal, in fact, amount to a rejection of that decision and it is 
a rejection by which I am bound." 

I submit to Your Honour, with the greatest of respect to Judge 
Fontana, he fell into the same trap or error as the Quebec Court 
of Appeal in its reading of the wording of Milberg. So I thought 
Your Honour should be aware of that. On the one hand, His Honour 
does distinguish between "keeper" and "found-in" and that's an 
important distinguishing feature and he effectively, I say 
inferentially, decides that he would've decided the case 
different and quashed the information if it had been gaming and 
on the other hand, he says that Milberg binds him as having 
rejected Bingo and, of course, in my submission to you, the clear 
wording of Milberg, when read fully, is quite the opposite. 

Now, Your Honour -- and I'd like to come back, finally, Your 
Honour, to deal with Griss because Your Honour asked me, "Am I 
not still bound by Griss, then, given the wording in Milberg?". 
You may well be, except that it's not relevant to our 
consideration because what is being determined in Griss one sees 
is something quite different. Here, the defendant was charged 
with keeping a common betting house, and the court was called 
upon to deal with that particular information on the issue of 
sufficiency. 

I say to Your Honour that when we analyze it in this way and we 
must, always keeping our eye on the target, the target being what 
is the offence alleged? What are the acts alleged in the 
information? That when we analyze it in this way, distinguishing 
where we must offences and acts which have no application, that 
one can see very clearly that on all of the prevailing case law 
and interpretations of it, that the counts one and two must be 
struck down. 

That count four is not offence known to law and similarly, count 
three is defective in the same way. In my submission to Your 
Honour, that results in the quashing of the Information before 
you. If there's any way you're troubled by any of these cases and 
the rationale and how they interface, I'd be happy to try and 
answer any of those questions, Your Honour, but it seems to me it 
will ultimately be your interpretation of whether these S.C.C. 
judgments, in fact, fall into place as I have analyzed them and 
whether Bingo, it remains standing at the end of all of this 
analysis. If it does, in my submission, they must be struck down. 
If it doesn't in your analysis, you don't, except perhaps count 
four, which, on other grounds, may be well be struck down. Thank 
you, Your Honour.

COURT: Crown? 

DANDYK: Yes, Your Honour. However one interprets Milberg, either 
as binding authority or persuasive authority, it does clearly 
address the issues before this court in ways as referred to and 
the wording according to the Code section, be it common bawdy 
house, common gaming house or common betting house is found to be 
sufficient.

That's the kind of wording we have before us and it is a question 
of semantics to suggest suddenly when one reads it closely, on 
the wording itself in count one, in the Crown's investigation of 
"unlawfully keep a gaming house", we have a typographical error 
where common gaming house -- in fact, "common" was not added. I 
would be asking for that amendment, to simply add that word. 

Now, it is clear that the crux of counsel's argument relates to 
Milberg and Bingo and it's important to note that while Milberg 
is a common bawdy house charge, that any reference to Griss and 
Gruber and ultimately, the ultimate conclusion, then is effective 
a strong obiter as opposed to ratio. 

In any case, the entire argument is an issue of semantics. 
Whether Billon-Rey, the Quebec Court of Appeal, misinterprets 
that finding or not, they similarly found a similar wording to be 
sufficient and they have no trouble with the various definitions 
provided and it's important to note that, in respect of common 
bawdy house, there is as well an (a) and (b) definition provided 
under 197 and it should be noted Judge Fontana was questioned in 
his decision on the quash. I note at page 16 that what is 
specifically stated is that he finds that Milberg does amount to 
a rejection of Bingo, which for some obscure reason, maybe I'm 
putting to much in the words "amount to a rejection", but it may 
well be that he read it as he saw it and in this Crown's 
respectful submission, that's exactly what it is. 

That when one looks at Milberg's reliance on Griss and Gruber as 
the basis for the entire argument, that does amount to a 
rejection and when one may quibble whether it's obiter or ratio, 
it is the crux of the entire decision and, therefore, it does 
amount to a rejection and it is, as noted in Milberg, significant 
to note that leave to appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada in 
Milberg was refused, that then being, effectively, at least 
persuasively if not precedent value, the highest decision in the 
land. 

In passing, it becomes significant to note that the Frenette 
decision from the Quebec Superior Court which related to an 
application to force the lower court judge to provide 
particulars, notes that an application to quash the wording that 
is virtually the same as this was rejected by that court. Both by 
reference to Griss and Gruber and to the entire rationale in 
Milberg, it's the Crown's respectful submission that our Court of 
Appeal is of the view that the general wording from the section 
is adequate. 

And then, the court goes on to discuss Griss and Gruber and 
although one distinguishes between keeping a common betting house 
or keeping a common gaming house, in fact then, in Milberg, 
keeping a common bawdy house - at least the Ontario Court of 
Appeal in Milberg clearly does not distinguish between them.

The crux of counsel's argument is that, in fact, this offence can 
effectively be committed in a number of ways. What is clear in 
Milberg, though, is that the court finds that general wording is 
sufficient and adequate to cover that and ultimately finds common 
bawdy house and by referring to and approving of Griss and Gruber 
that being sufficient. That's defence's argument. 

The entire argument within Milberg is right on point and to 
suggest that while technically they disagree with Bingo only 
insofar as to the point whether Wiz is over-ruled or not is to 
read it much to simply. One reads it entirely and they clearly 
approve of that general rule and that does address the issue of 
sufficiency and that is the approach to be taken by this court, 
whether it views it as binding or whether it views it as 
persuasive. 

To bolster Milberg, Dandyk brought up Regina and R.I.C., a sexual 
assault case; R. v. Doug Dale, a charge of gross; R. v Cook, 
another sexual assault; R. v. Moore, a possession of stolen 
property; G.B.A.B and C.S. versus The Queen, sexual assault. I 
found it funny that he had to use all those sex cases to back up 
his bawdy-house precedent for gaming house sufficiency, Because 
all the 

We are, therefore, left with the charges before this court and I 
have already indicated to this court it is the Crown's respectful 
submission that Milberg is appropriate. The Quebec Court of 
Appeal case in Billion-Rey is appropriate. That they are, at the 
very least, persuasive, if not binding on this Court. 

I note in passing that counsel took, I suppose, considerable 
solace in Judge Fontana's differentiating between a "found-in" or 
a "keeper" and as to the logic of that argument, I see some 
concern because if I were the found-in and I had, I suppose, 
argument to be made as to which definition there's sufficient 
information to be precluded from making that argument because I'm 
a found-in and not a keeper doesn't seem, at least in the Crown's 
respectful submission, assuming defence's argument applies, an 
appropriate distinction. 

I don't think it changes Milberg and I'm suggesting that Milberg 
is applicable, but it doesn't seem an appropriate distinction for 
that reason. It is the Crown's respectful submission that Milberg 
is applicable. 

Count two, of course, in the Crown's respectful submission needs 
no amendment for the same reasons. It is, in fact, sufficient. 

Count three, in the Crown's respectful submission, again, is 
sufficient. We, in fact, have clear, careful detail provided and, 
in fact, the wording specified under 202(11(e) and we, in fact, 
have further specification as, "to engage in the business or 
occupation of betting", one of the portions of that and I'm 
suggesting that is sufficient detail. 

Count four. Counsel has criticized or questioned whether 
"gambling" is an appropriate word within that section. He's 
suggesting it doesn't exist within that section. I note under (9) 
the word "gambling" is used and under (b) the word "gambling" is 
used. In fact, under (b), the word "gambling" or "betting" is 
used. They are, effectively, interchangeable. If any meaning is 
to be given to the difference, referring to the dictionary 
definition, one could change that to the word "betting" and it 
wouldn't substantively change the offence and that, again, is 
more semantic. I'm suggesting it is sufficient. Subject to any 
questions, those are my submissions. 

COURT: Do you wish to make a brief reply? 

EDELSON: Yes. My friend keeps repeating, Your Honour, Griss, 
Griss, Griss and Gruber. I don't see any specific reference to 
distinguish the comments I made already. I also simply make one 
further reference that I neglected to point your attention to, 
Your Honour, the top of 190 of Griss where they said:

"In our view, this does not mean merely classifying or 
characterizing the offence. It calls for the necessity of 
specifying time, place and matter of stating the facts alleged to 
constitute the indictable offence." And then, the last sentence 
of the next paragraph:

"There must be in words sufficient to give the accused notice of 
the offence with which he is charged." 

That, of course, has now changed. No matter how we look at it, in 
my submission, my friend valiantly, I think, tries to distinguish 
Wiz and say that Bingo would have no application, but Wiz, of 
course, says very specifically where there are diverse and 
unrelated acts that must call for very specific details in the 
information or indictment and similarly, as the court says in 
Wiz, they can't be resolved by particulars. My friend makes 
mention of disclosure, of particulars, et cetera. The Supreme 
Court of canada said very clearly that that does not resolve an 
information or count in an information that's void ab initio and 
that's my position. If Your Honour takes a different position 
that it's not void but merely lacking in particulars, I move 
under 5861l)(f) that Your Honour order particulars in each count, 
if you uphold the validity of the counts themselves, as to the 
mode in which it's alleged by the Crown that these offences have 
been committed. As I pointed out, there's up to ten variants in 
the various sections, some of which are totally unrelated in my 
submission.

COURT: We'll recess for now.


RECESS RESUMING: - - - - - -

COURT: The accused is charged with four offences. Defence counsel 
has brought a Motion to Quash all charges in the Information. 
Section 581(1) states:

"Each count in an indictment shall in general apply to a single 
transaction and shall contain in substance a statement that the 
accused or defendant committed an offence therein specified." 
Subsection (2) states:

"The statement referred to in subsection 11) may be

(a) in popular language without technical averments or 
allegations of matters that are not essential to be proved;

(b) in the words of the enactment that describes the offence or 
declares the matters charged to be an indictable offence; or

(c) in words that are sufficient to give the accused notice of 
the offence with which he is charged." Subsection (3) states:

"A count shall contain sufficient detail of the circumstances of 
the alleged offence to give to the accused reasonable information 
with respect to the act or omission to be proved against him and 
to identify the transaction referred to, but otherwise the 
absence or insufficiency of details does not vitiate the count." 

Section 583 sets out certain grounds that will not make an 
indictment insufficient. Defence counsel has relied on R. and 
Bingo Enterprises Ltd. et al 41 C.R. (3d) 291, a decision of the 
Manitoba Court of Appeal and to a lesser extent, R. and Wilson 26 
C.R. (3d) 8, also a decision of the Manitoba Court of Appeal. In 
the two aforementioned cases, the Manitoba Court of Appeal 
quashed charges virtually identical to counts one and two in the 
Turmel indictment.

In Wilson the court upheld the validity of a charge virtually 
identical to count number three in the Turmel indictment. With 
respect to counts three and four in the matter before me, I have 
found no precedents nor have I been persuaded by counsel's 
argument that they are in any way deficient in law. Count four 
may lack precision in wording, but this is not fatal to the count 
and the Wilson case specifically holds that count number three 
should not be quashed. The defence motions as it applies to count 
three and four is dismissed. Count one and two, that is, the 
keeping of a Common gaming house and the keeping of a common 
betting house, have been the subject of judicial interpretation. 

As I have previously indicated, the Manitoba Court of Appeal has 
held that charges worded almost identically to counts one and two 
should be quashed. In Ontario, the law with respect to these 
counts is governed, in my view, by R. and Milberg, 35 C.C.C. (3d) 
45, a decision of the Ontario Court of Appeal. Leave to appeal 
this decision to the Supreme Court of Canada was refused on June 
23rd, 1987. The Milberg case declined to follow the Bingo 
Enterprises case and instead followed their previous decision in 
R. and Griss and Gruber [1936] 67 C.C.C. 184. The Milberg and 
Griss and Gruber cases held that informations similar to counts 
one and two in the Turmel Information did fulfill the 
requirements of the Criminal Code and should not be quashed. The 
Milberg case dealt with keeping a common bawdy house, while the 
Griss and Gruber case dealt with a keeping of a common betting 
house. Robins, Justice in Appeal for the court in Milberg stated:

"The charge of keeping a common bawdy house framed in the form in 
issue has long been employed in prosecutions under s.193 and its 
predecessor sections. This indeed is the suggested form of charge 
specified in the Appendix of Forms in Martin's Criminal Code at 
page 1041. In our opinion, this form of charge has not been 
affected by the Wiz decision, although its sufficiency has not 
previously been the subject of judicial determination, comparable 
provisions of the code have been. 

For example, in R. and Griss and Gruber [1936] 67 C.C.C. 184, 
this court dealt with an information charging the offence of 
keeping a common betting house in the words of the section 
creating the offence. The information was attacked on the ground 
that it failed to disclose the offence for which it was taken. 
The offence of keeping a common betting house like that of 
keeping a common bawdy house can, by definition, also be 
committed in a variety of ways. In upholding the information, 
Middleton, Justice in Appeal on behalf of the court, said at 
pages 190 and 191:

"Here the offence is charged in the precise words of s.229, which 
create the indictable offence, the keeping of a disorderly house, 
to wit, a gaming or betting house. The place of the offence is 
given with circumstantial detail and also the time of the 
offence. This, I think, permitted by the precise provisions of 
the section of the code referred to, sections 225 and 227 are 
merely definitions. Statements of facts and circumstances which 
constitute the thing done as being a disorderly house, a common 
betting house and in my view, it is not necessary that statutory 
interpretation of the terms used in defining a crime should be 
themselves set out in the indictment.""

His Lordship went on to state at page 191:

"In other words, the definition sections, 225, 226 and 227, 
merely constitute a dictionary and fixes a meaning to the terms 
used when the crime is defined. The form given for making a 
charge of murder is that the accused, on a certain date at a 
certain place, did murder the named individual. The definition of 
murder is found in sections 259 and 260. It has never of recent 
years been thought to be necessary to refer to the particular 
definition of that serious crime which is intended to be invoked 
at the trial."

These observations apply with equal force to the Information in 
the present case in which the offence was similarly charged in 
the words of the section of the Code creating the indictable 
offence of keeping a common bawdy house. See also R. and France, 
R. and Wong Guy, R. and Longpie. It is manifest that many 
offences are capable of being committed in more ways than one 
under the provisions of the Code. That fact does not of itself 
render invalid a charge framed in the words declaring the matter 
charged to be an offence, so long as the alleged offence is set 
out in the information and sufficient detail is given to identify 
the transaction or the subject of the charge, the charge will 
satisfy the requirements of s.510(3). The Crown is entitled to 
rely on any part or parts of the statutory definition that prove 
applicable to the facts established by the evidence. 

If, however, the language used to describe the alleged offence is 
capable of covering diverse and unrelated acts, the charge will 
fall within the principles enunciated in the Wiz decision and be 
vitiated for want of sufficient detail as required by s.510(3), 
but that is not this case. The charge here is easily understood 
and conceptually uncomplicated. While it may be perpetrated in a 
number of different ways, they cannot be said to be diverse or 
unrelated and it is not necessary to refer to the particular part 
of the definition of the offence that is intended to be invoked 
at trial. 

Robins, Justice in Appeal, goes on to state at page 50:

"We are obliged to note our respectful disagreement with the 
opinion of the Manitoba Court of Appeal in R. and Bingo 
Enterprises that Wiz Developments over-ruled R. and Griss and 
Gruber, supra, and the line of authority to which the court 
referred at page 265 of its judgment. We do not read the Wiz 
decision as having this effect nor we respectfully add do we read 
Wiz as casting any doubt on the earlier Supreme Court of Canada 
decision in R. and MacKenzie, supra. In this latter regard, we 
agree with the Saskatchewan Court of Appeal in Fisher and The 
Queen [1985] 45 C.R. 13d) 191, that R. and MacKenzie, supra, has 
not been overruled by Wiz."

And the Quebec Court of Appeal in R. and Billon-Rey et al [1990] 
57 C.C.C. (3d) 223 in a keeping a common gaming house charge held 
that informations almost identical to counts one and two of the 
Turmel Information were valid and should not have been quashed by 
the trial judge. The Quebec Court of Appeal followed the Ontario 
Court of Appeal decision in Milberg and declined to follow the 
Manitoba Court of Appeal in Bingo Enterprises case. 

Since we are in Ontario and I, as a trial judge, am bound to 
follow the Ontario Court of Appeal decisions in this case, R. and 
Milberg and R. and Griss and Gruber. That being so, counts one 
and two of the Turmel Information are proper and valid. The 
Motion to Quash is dismissed.

EDELSON: Now, Your Honour, on the supplemental application for 
particulars....

COURT: Counsel, I'm not going to embark on a particulars motion 
now at this time. I've been sitting since nine o'clock and it'll 
probably be opposed by the Crown and I'm not going to embark on 
it now. 

EDELSON: No, I understand we're not going to argue it, Your 
Honour, and I'm not going to prevail on you to hear argument. I 
just want to make the position that I've made earlier. My friend 
has talked about ten boxes of material or whatever. My only 
concern is that if we're stuck to bring particulars applications 
under 586 at the trial and we only get particulars then, Your 
Honour can imagine what difficulty that will create for the 
defence and I want the record to reflect very clearly my position 
at this earliest opportunity that we were seeking particulars. 
Your Honour does talk about imprecision in the wording and I 
think that's obviously a valid and apt comment. My position is, 
Your Honour, that imprecision results in Mr. Turmel being unable 
to make full answer and defence and I'd like my friend to be 
aware of that early on. 

COURT: Now, I would suggest you get together and see if you can 
work it out without judicial intervention. If you can't, there's 
nothing preventing you from bringing a motion similar to the one 
you just did. 

EDELSON: I know. Your Honour's not seized of it and that's... 

COURT: No. 

EDELSON:...quite acceptable to me. 

DANDYK: If it assists, I'm of the view, at least in respect of 
counts one and two, that particulars, at least on a cursory view, 
are likely -- I will speak to Mr. Marin on the file. Subject to 
disclosure and so on, I expect that these issues may be resolved 
without judicial intervention. 

COURT: Well, I hope they can be and if they can't, well, we'll be 
back in court again. 

EDELSON: Your Honour, the only other comment I make is that 
tentatively, we have fixed a trial date of August the 12th. Now, 
Mr. Marin had written a letter saying that Detective Cleary's 
away on holiday and he is away on holiday. 

DANDYK: As I understand it, no formal date was set on the 12th. 
Counsel cleared himself for the 12th. Neither the Crown nor the 
police were canvassed, so I can clearly indicate that was not 
with the consent of the Crown or the officers and I can indicate 
neither the investigator nor Mr. Marin are present and it will 
not be trial ready by that date in any case. 

COURT: What are counsel seeking? 

EDELSON: Well, I suggest it simply go to the 12th as it's fixed 
now, but in number five to fix a date. The Crown has had 17 
months and the police have had 17 months to organize the 
prosecution of this matter. 

DANDYK: I don't believe I can. I was told the preliminary package 
will only be available in some three weeks. 

COURT: The matter is adjourned to August 12th, 8:30, court five, 
to set a date for your trial. 

TURMEL: Well, we have a date for the trial right now and a 
hundred people are going to be seriously inconvenienced so this 
officer can go on holiday and I just think that's terrible. I 
mean, we have an early date. Everybody's been counting on it. 
Everybody has been hungry and all of a sudden, the Crown wants to 
have extra time. We just come to pick a date. I think that's 
unacceptable. We had a date promised to us and it's just -- I 
mean, the mere fact we're going to trial on three book-making 
charges, I think, is going to put the court in disrepute. So we 
can't have our trial. 0.K. When?
COURT: Just close the court. 
COURT ADJOURNED
**********

19930812
       ONTARIO COURT OF JUSTICE (PROVINCIAL DIVISION)
                   HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN
                          against
                        JOHN TURMEL
                        ***********
                        ADJOURNMENT
HEARD BEFORE HIS WORSHIP JUSTICE OF THE PEACE R. SCULTHORPE
         on the 12th day of August, 1993 at OTTAWA
                        ***********
Charges: S.201(1), C.C.  -  Two counts
         S.202(1)(c), C.C.
         S.202(1)(e), C.C.
                        ***********
APPEARANCES: 
Mr. J. Langevin                    Counsel for the Crown
Ms. C. D'Angelo                    Counsel for the Defendant
 
Courtrom Number Five  August 12, 1993

D'ANGELO: I'd ask that Mr. Edelson's name be removed from the 
record at this time. 
COURT: All right. We'll remove Mr. Edelson's name. Would you page 
Mr. Turmel in? 
COURT: Mr. Turmel, I understand that this will be a rather 
lengthy trial and that a Pre-Trial is in order. I've been given a 
date of September 20th, Courtroom Number Seven, as the date for 
the Pre-Trial.
TURMEL: Before you do that, though, before I'm called on to plead 
further, I do wish to - pursuant to section 606, plead autrefois 
acquit, which is a question of pure law and I have my paperwork 
ready. Could I be sent off to a Judge? 
COURT: Mr. Turmel, that has to be done in another forum. You may 
be able to do it on September the 20th in Number Seven Courtroom 
before Judge Lennox. 
TURMEL: Well, I want to do this before I plead because the Code 
says so and that's why I would like to be sent off to a Judge, if 
possible. 
COURT: That's correct. You are not going to be going for a plea 
on September 20th. It is a Pre-Trial. That will be your discovery 
if you want, or your disclosure, and you can make the motion that 
you want to make at that time. You are not being put over for any 
type of plea on September 27th at 2p.m. in Number Seven 
Courtroom. All right. You can make your motion at that time.

--
Abolitionist Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer" Turmel
for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution C6
to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm 
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel 519-756-1325 USENET: can.politics



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