Re: Jairazbhoy's "Rameses III, Father of Ancient America", was Re: Caral's Irrigation system

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:52:48 +0100, in sci.archaeology.mesoamerican, Doug
Weller wrote:

>This is the statue that he claims is a statue of Ramses III found in the
>volcano at San Martin:
>http://edj.net/mc2012/waters.htm  (diagram 178, Monument 1).
>
>He claims it is a picture of Ramses in his boat painted in his temple at
>Thebes, claiming that "This is proved by seven particulars that they share
>in common. Both wear wrist and arm bands, and more importantly, a head
>cloth whose lappets fall over the ears onto the shoulders.  It is called
>the nemes crown in Egypt, and is worn only by the Pharaoh. Again, only the
>Pharaoh could wear a uraeus on the brow, which is a firespitting serpent..
>The Mexican figure has serpents beside the brow and they are actually
>flamelike.  Finally, in addition to the posture, the oars, the items of
>apparel, and the snake diadem, both have three crosses above the head.  In
>Egypt they are hieroglyphic signs for 'city' and imply here the heavenly
>city in the underworld. And similarly, in Mexico the cross-in-disk
>signifies the sun in the Underworld."

I have had a couple of replies to this elsewhere.

First, one points out that Nigel Davies in his excellent book Voyagers to
the New World comments on Jairazbhoy.  Davies treats him with respect
while disagreeing with him. Partially this is because Jairazbhoy treats
archaeologists with respect, partially because Davies finds some of the
religious parallels he draws interesting.  He does point out that there
are some chronological problems with Jairazbhoy's research.

Professor Bernard Ortiz de Montellano also responded briefly - he had to
go prepare for his son's wedding today so didn't have much time.

He wrote:
" 1) the statue referred to was in a shrine atop the San martin Pajapan
volcano but it was moved from its original context in the 19th century.
Although volcanoes were very important to the Olmec (more later) and to
Mesoamerica. I'm not aware that volcanoes were important to Egyptians

2) The drawing of the sculpture found is not accurate in this book. There
already have been published interpretations describing the costume and
posture of the statue that are congruent with Mesoamerican beliefs and
iconography. For example he is wearing earspools-- not a great Egyptian
custom. He is holding a pole symbolizing the earth tree-- not an oar.

3) Quoting from my CA paper--
Jairazbhoy (1992:10-14) [the book here in question] maintains that Rameses
III was in Mexico and that images of him can be found there. [Actually
this statue is supposed to be Ramesses III himself]. El Mahdy (1989:
87-89) points out that members of the Rameside dynasty had very strongly
hooked noses - certainly not found in the colossal Olmec heads. {or in
this Pajapan statue itself)."

He also points out that there are chronology problems. Both Davies and
Bernard remind us that Jairazbhoy admitted that he would have problems
with the C14 dates if they held up, and Bernard says that they have -- but
that Jairazbhoy is still telling the same story.

EL MAHDY, C. 1989. Mummies, myth, and magic in ancient Egypt, New York:
Thames and Hudson."

Doug
-- 
Doug Weller -- exorcise the demon to reply
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