Re: Date limit set on first Americans

Bob Keeter wrote:
> 
> "Seppo Renfors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> Snippage. . . .
> 
> > > Let me offer a few references. . . . 8-)
> > >
> > > As for spear throwers being used by seafareing people and from boats. .
> . .
> > >
> > > http://www.sbnature.org/research/anthro/chumash/term.htm
> > >
> > > You have the Inuit!
> >
> > ...and the word originates from the Aztec language (your source). It
> > is meant for lightweight spears or "arrows". Inuits used a "norsaqs".
> > I believe norsaqs are side mounted, part way down the shaft of the
> > harpoon, whereas altatls (or woomeras) are end mounted, pushing on the
> > tail end of the spear shaft. A different gadget!
> >
> 
> Guess I didnt point out that the atlatl of the Americas was a very different
> machine than the woomera (which at least in my meaning) meant a sturdy,
> relatively inflexible spear thrower.  Both are spear throwers, with little
> in common other than the basic functions, working off of significantly
> different principles (sort of like a steam engine and a diesel engine; both
> power a train, both have pistons, both produce rotary motion, but from very
> different basic principles (unless you want to count the expansion of a
> heated gas).
> 
> As for the differences between an atlatl and a norsaq, correct me if I am
> wrong, but was not a norsaq an essentially rigid emplement more akin to the
> woomera than the atlatl.  And sorry, but I hope that I was not really trying
> to say that the lightweight atlatl dart had much to do with the
> woomera/norsaq.  The stiff spear throwers (to the best of my knowledge
> anyway) all seemed to be paired up with heavier javelin-style projectiles.

The atlatl is merely a name for a "throwing stick" - there are a
number of varieties from rigid to flexible models. The woomera is
usually rigid. They can also be of a dual purpose - form a longish
bowl as well as a throwing stick. Alternately it can be almost
identical to a rigid atlatl.

The norsaq is a rigid item as well. It is this that is used in the
Arctic, not the atlatl as far as I know. The URL below shows a type of
it in use and a drawing of the system.

http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/guille/wiki.pl?Harpoon
> 
> > [snip story about "water is cold"]
> >
> > I just note that tropical waters are not "cold", and turtle hunting
> > with spears takes place in those waters - as does Dugong hunting.
> 
> Yep.  And not really critical to the point, but then a lot on this thread
> has not been.  8-)
> 
> > > A spear thrower in essence amplifies the
> > > force of the hunter's arm.  In hunting big game, it would allow you
> > > considerable "standoff" or be used to drive the spear deeply into the
> > > vitals.  In a canoe, that same device would allow a person to propel a
> dart
> > > or harpoon with a very credible speed without exorting quite as much of
> an
> > > "overturning" force.  Ive seen several pictures of Inuit using spear
> > > throwers in kayaks, but cant seem to find one on the web right now.
> >
> > Whale hunting by Inuits and Aleuts were done by much heavier equipment
> > than lightweight spears. It was done by getting alongside a whale and
> > driving a harpoon[s] into the animal from the boat. A dangerous
> > activity indeed.
> 
> ABSOLUTELY true.  An atlatl dart would be totally unuseful for whaling I
> would suppose.  (not that an atlatl point driven deeply into the body cavity
> might not end up fatal), but certainly not quickly and certainly not before
> the whale had a lot of time to wreak havoc or escape entirely.  Might, under
> the right circumstances be substituted for the whaling "lance", but
> certainly not for the harpoon.

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Gallery/Descript/baskingshark/baskingshark.html

There exists an old black and white movie (1930 ->40's), where the
basking shark is being harpooned from boats that are only canvas. The
movie is made on one of the Islands North of Scotland, as near as I
can tell (a windswept rock). There is about 5 or 6 men to a boat, one
has the harpoon, the rest row out to a shark. They harpoon the shark
and hang on for dear life as they go for a ride. The rope is wrapped
around a sturdy peg (about 8" diam) in the centre of the boat up
forward. As the shark takes off, they attempt to slow the playing out
of the rope, and it can be seen causing the timber to smoke due to
friction.

They use steel harpoon points about 2 ft long with a timber shaft. One
of the fish twisted one of these harpoons totally out of shape and
escaped. They did get others. The men stay out there for days at a
time, hanging on for dear life literally. They render the sharks down
for oil, used in their lamps, and for meat. The basking shark comes
past that place every year and is their main source of food for the
year (or was then).


[..]

-- 
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised 
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The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
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