Re: Switching from growers to layers

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jill 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
> "Krys Francis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > >hmmmm
> > >yet your suggestion is to keep them on a higher protein and push them
> even
> > >harder
> > I don't think that it's as extreme as you would suggest.
> no but neither do you know

With all due respect... do you?

How would anyone know that what you've been told or have read is any 
more accurate than what the various feed companies or Victoria Roberts 
or anyone else recommends as a good age to change onto layers? You 
haven't given any real information.

The recommended ages for change seems to vary from feed company to feed 
company in UK, as it is their job to know about the correct balance 
needed for various stages of development It would be logical to expect 
the ages given to be a good approximation for their own particular 
products. You haven't given a good reason why this would not be the 
case. Indeed the proportions of types nutrient appears to vary from 
brand to brand too.

I have never seen info from any company, or anyone else, which states 
commercials give layers at age x & purebreds give layer at age y.
I have a few breeds which come into lay at a similar age to commercials 
(& earlier than some), would they get layers at age x or age y?

There are other considerations such as: Sexual maturity (age at first 
egg) & growth being affected greatly by environmental factors such as 
the shortening hours of light causing a delay in sexual maturity. 
Recommended ages for change can therefore only be an approximation not 
something rigid. Logic would suggest that if age at first egg is delayed 
then the change to layers should also be delayed.

> but a finisher would be a description for a table bird not a layer

It's not a term just used for table birds. Some feed companies sell 
products called grower/finishers, to be fed after chick crumbs.
It's also sometimes used as a maintenance diet.

> I forget
> what do you have so strongly against barley
> Its not a factor up here [its just not avaiable] but just curious

It's not just me, barley grain is fine for ducks not for chickens. I'm 
surprised that you don't know the reason.


> as we are not given a true balance in any of the feeds available to the
> domestic keeper
> we do not know
> so why guess

That depends upon where you got your figures from.
Since even amongst differing genyotypes of commercial layers the same 
feed will have different results it can only ever be a, hopefully, best 
an approximation. When combining the effects of genotype & environmental 
factors, the variation becomes more marked. So the feed companies must 
be giving an approximation to suit their feed.

> vintamins and minerals are much more complex than that
> there are hundreds of papers on it
> not something you can precis here
> but there are research papers on small % differences of this and that

As a vegetarian I have a reasonable knowledge of human nutrition. Enough 
to have a reasonable discussion with a nutritionist. From what I've read 
about the effects of vitamins & minerals in humans I think that poultry 
feed manufacturers would be unlikely to have ingredients such as vit A & 
D3 in the amounts necessary to cause damage.
No-one would expect a summary of every paper but I don't see why you 
can't give a conclusion with explanations. You wouldn't have to give a 
lecture in words of less than two syllables.


> I have always warned of the extra percentage protein being a fishy problem
> often

But you've not explained why. I've been reading about excess protein.
I don't have a problem understanding varying amino acids in different 
proteins

If you'd explained why about most of these points properly, then I 
possibly wouldn't have reason to quibble.

> > I wasn't suggesting that anyone who wants chickens just for eggs should
> > feed growers indefinitely.
> but why should they for an extra month for no good reason ?

Delayed sexual maturity due to shortening hours of daylight & possibly 
other environmental factors is a pretty logical reason. If you know 
something which negates this you could explain.


> sorry - I meant the plants not feed

Oh the plants.... Why they wouldn't be suitable here? We live on the 
side of the Aeron Valley rich vegetation & broad leaf woodland. Clay 
soil, rich in nutrients. Grain crops were grown on this farm till about 
50 years ago when dairy cattle took over. It's in our large flat 
farmyard that things get rather boggy, in the other parts of the 
property the water runs off down the hill, in the ditches for the most 
part & into the stream at the bottom which in turn runs into the Aeron. 
There are a few large estates in this valley who grow these plant/grass 
mixes for their pheasants etc.


> Someone recommended it for the non winter laying breeders. Why
> > do you say that this is a bad idea?
> What is??
> lost the thread here

Sorry, I'd misunderstood what you were saying.

It's a shame that we took to being pedantic about the exact age when 
layers should be given.  An explanation about poultry nutrition would 
have been helpful, it wouldn't have needed to be in minute detail. I 
can't see that it would have been that difficult to write an informative 
post off the top of your head.

--

Regards


Krys
www.lluestfarmpoultry.co.uk