Re: Switching from growers to layers

"Krys Francis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >hmmmm
> >yet your suggestion is to keep them on a higher protein and push them
even
> >harder
> I don't think that it's as extreme as you would suggest.
no but neither do you know

growers is different from layers
Growers is for the growing phase
and layers is for the run up to and the lyaing phase
The original poster has a recnet hybrid - created in todays conditions; with
todays - and the UK's feeds
- not anything from the old ages
- not anything from the US
but ordinary feeds from the UK
in that scenario I advised that the birds produced with the feeds available
to the poster
that growers had done their job and it was time to move on to what they
should get to move into the laying phase as that is what they will be doing

> I've been looking at a few books. I think that I now know less than when
> I started.
yes that is the problem
> This is some of what I found:
> Poultry vet Victoria Roberts in 'Diseases of Free Range Poultry' writes
> that 18 weeks is the time to change to layers, protein content 18%
> growers, 16% layers
most free range layers do not have 18% most are 16%
some growers have 17%
so that lot is worthless
its not just protein
and protein is not simple

(in this book she does talk of hybrids but offers no
> provision for changing their feed at a different time).
but then its a long time since she had anything in her care and her pure
breeds we not the prodcutive type anyway so the chances are she did not
spend lots of time talking to old hands

Gail Damerow in
> 'The Chicken Health Handbook' put the age to start birds on layers as 20
> weeks, but she talks of something called developer.
Probably cos she is from teh Us unlike the OP - I always defer in questions
of feeding in the US as they have completely different regs and feeds

Allen & Page
> Smallholder range info gives the ages to be using their grower feed as
> from 4 weeks to 12 weeks, as they don't have a finisher
but a finisher would be a description for a table bird not a layer

 I can only
> presume that they intend layers to be used after this, interestingly
> enough their protein content for both grower & layer is the same.
but the feed mix and the protein types may well be different
its the subtlety that matters not the gross breakdown that we are given
Allen
> & Page info, surprisingly, does not inspire confidence because their
> 'Super mixed corn' contains barley.
I forget
what do you have so strongly against barley
Its not a factor up here [its just not avaiable] but just curious

The Organic Feed Company's feed has
> grower fed from 6 weeks to finish & their layers pellets have a higher
> protein content than the grower finisher but presumably these growers
> pellets still have more vitamins.
not more but different
Too much of certain vitamins and minerals at the wrong time can be harmful
too don't forget

 The other books/info don't discuss age
> (except the 1950s utility poultry book which is presumably not about
> hybrids) Robert Plamondon has written that he starts his birds on layers
> as early as 8 weeks.
and he has a completely different system which is also in teh US and works
in one place
And commonly old breeders would put their pullets on grain only from
growers - what ever  tyope they had- right the way through the winter as
they did not want eggs until the spring
now that is not something I would advise -but it happens in both showing and
production

> It would seem that every book has a different opinion about feed, in the
> same way as the number of hours of daylight recommended for egg
> production seems to vary V.Roberts writes 14 hours, on BOCM Paul's layer
> pellets bag it used to say 17 hours were required, I've also seen 15
> hours quoted.
which means as I have sid before there are no rules
but there are guidelines depending on the situation
Which is why I often answer with a "depends"
or answer as in this case with advice for the posters scenario - not what I
might suggest in a breeders situation
There are lots of different takes
but most folks have bog standard feed
This poster from the email addy and breed was in the Uk
so advice was for the hybrid and likely feed types available

>
> Differences between grower & layer pellets seem to vary rather more than
> I'd thought.
> One book states that giving excess calcium damages the kidneys.
in deed

 As far
> as I can tell the shortening hours of daylight (not an issue in
> commercial plants) seem more likely to affect (delay) when the birds
> come into lay, far more than a bit of extra protein & vitamins would
> push it.
yes - but ordinary layers feed are not pushing anything
you seem to have a thing about bog standard layers feed
its not a nasty feed going to harm teh birds for ever
Feeding a growers feed is possibly more likely too as the balance is
different

>
> >Breeder production is harder than simple layers
> >The point is the ration is of the correct balance for layers
>
> I don't think that I suggested anyone keeping hybrids on growers
> indefinitely.
no but at this time in their lives they are changing very rapidly
so are their needs
So changing to a layers ration when the bird type is ready for it seems
about right

I cannot see that an extra month on growers with extra
> calcium/phosphorus offered is likely to do any harm
but it might not do them as much good as the correct balance in layers which
is what I was saying
You can do all sorts of things to chickens and they comethrough it
The poster was looking for advice as to a recommended strategy not a well
it';; not hurt to do XXX strategy
If he had said I have just bought a bag of growers and I only have a few
birds am I going to hurt them I would have said no  -- but its not ideal

since some birds of
> long time breeders do fine their whole lives on growers,
fine but that does not make it the best scenario in this day and age
They all have their own quirks - it does not make it gospel
There are as many quirks as there are breeders
There are probably old folks still feeding bone meal - but that does not
make it legal

it doesn't seem
> to harm them, their eggs are as edible as any others. I don't know but
> I'd guess that the extra vitamins would go into the yolk.
and some vitamins as not extruded
as we are not given a true balance in any of the feeds available to the
domestic keeper
we do not know
so why guess

>
> >Breeders is balanced for the increased results we require - in fertility
etc
> >Breeders is more of a push on theh system than layers
>
> That sounds confusing ... as if the hens were aware of whether their
> eggs are for eating or hatching. I think broadly that if they don't eat
> it then their eggs will not have it. Except the calcium/phosphorus which
> any laying bird needs, lack of, potentially causing skeletal problems.
vintamins and minerals are much more complex than that
there are hundreds of papers on it
not something you can precis here
but there are research papers on small % differences of this and that

> >
> >you are not comparing like with like
> >Free range feed - like Dodson and Horrell; Marriages; Allen and Page is
only
> >16% protein and they are not feeds that the major indoor commercials use
in
> >huge quantities I would suggest
> >These are formulated for the free range and back yard bird
> >Talk to their nutritionists - very interesting people
>
> I see what you mean about feed companies, I was thinking that you were
> talking more along the lines of BOCM Pauls etc.
why ??
I have never spoken of them
and have never suggested them for the domestic keeper
I have always warned of the extra percentage protein being a fishy problem
often

> I wasn't suggesting that anyone who wants chickens just for eggs should
> feed growers indefinitely.
but why should they for an extra month for no good reason ?

>
> >Granted as I have said before I now take Spillers off the list as they do
> >not consider their formulation much at all
>
> I'm surprised at Allen & Page's nutritionists after what I've just read.
but have you actually spoken to the nutritionist and got their
explanation???
not the girls on the switchboard but someone who actually knows what they
are talking about
Not spoken to the A P one for ages - due to not being able to pay £2 a bag
for their goods
but its usually interesting

> >
> >Other considerations would presumably not be of
> >> any concern to the commercials since the birds which they are
interested
> >> in don't need to live very long?
> >> Don't know how much relevance life expectancy has regarding nutrition.
> >Well we have had 10 year old birds fed exactly that way - Black rocks
which
> >are to some degree commerical and certainly lay well
> >We are talking about Speckedlys here
> >Long life is not bred into them - thats genetics not feeding
> >They have been bred to mature around the 18 - 20 weeks - and their bodies
> >will be changing - you cannot stop that and I certainly would not want to
> >interfere with that
> >so it is better to feed what has been balanced for the bird at that stage
in
> >her life
>
> I can see what you're saying & I respect that fact that you know a lot
> more than I do about poultry nutrition (& hybrids) .
not really - a bit more gut reaction from my science degree and general
background maybe

I do find it rather
> difficult when different knowledgeable people say different things. I
> suspect that at the end of the day, the exact age when one changes from
> grower to layers is probably not that critical.
There are no "rules" but there are some pretty good basics
AS a few years you get in to a swing but you keep reading and talking and
listening and every so often you trust and make a cockup and then you learn
some more

> >
> >You have different birds and are doing different things with them - so
you
> >can have a different regime.
>
> I use breeder pellets because I can get them. Some of the breeders in
> the field enclosures (1/2 acres) get game cover (13% protein) in the
> winter.
sorry - I meant the plants not feed

Someone recommended it for the non winter laying breeders. Why
> do you say that this is a bad idea?
What is??
lost the thread here

--
regards
Jill Bowis
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> --
>
> Regards
>
>
> Krys
> www.lluestfarmpoultry.co.uk