Re: Switching from growers to layers

> hmmmm
> yet your suggestion is to keep them on a higher protein and push them even
> harder
I don't think that it's as extreme as you would suggest.
I've been looking at a few books. I think that I now know less than when 
I started.
This is some of what I found:
Poultry vet Victoria Roberts in 'Diseases of Free Range Poultry' writes 
that 18 weeks is the time to change to layers, protein content 18% 
growers, 16% layers (in this book she does talk of hybrids but offers no 
provision for changing their feed at a different time). Gail Damerow in 
'The Chicken Health Handbook' put the age to start birds on layers as 20 
weeks, but she talks of something called developer. Allen & Page 
Smallholder range info gives the ages to be using their grower feed as 
from 4 weeks to 12 weeks, as they don't have a finisher I can only 
presume that they intend layers to be used after this, interestingly 
enough their protein content for both grower & layer is the same. Allen 
& Page info, surprisingly, does not inspire confidence because their 
'Super mixed corn' contains barley. The Organic Feed Company's feed has 
grower fed from 6 weeks to finish & their layers pellets have a higher 
protein content than the grower finisher but presumably these growers 
pellets still have more vitamins. The other books/info don't discuss age 
(except the 1950s utility poultry book which is presumably not about 
hybrids) Robert Plamondon has written that he starts his birds on layers 
as early as 8 weeks.
It would seem that every book has a different opinion about feed, in the 
same way as the number of hours of daylight recommended for egg 
production seems to vary V.Roberts writes 14 hours, on BOCM Paul's layer 
pellets bag it used to say 17 hours were required, I've also seen 15 
hours quoted.

Differences between grower & layer pellets seem to vary rather more than 
I'd thought.
One book states that giving excess calcium damages the kidneys. As far 
as I can tell the shortening hours of daylight (not an issue in 
commercial plants) seem more likely to affect (delay) when the birds 
come into lay, far more than a bit of extra protein & vitamins would 
push it.

> Breeder production is harder than simple layers
> The point is the ration is of the correct balance for layers

I don't think that I suggested anyone keeping hybrids on growers 
indefinitely. I cannot see that an extra month on growers with extra 
calcium/phosphorus offered is likely to do any harm since some birds of 
long time breeders do fine their whole lives on growers, it doesn't seem 
to harm them, their eggs are as edible as any others. I don't know but 
I'd guess that the extra vitamins would go into the yolk.

> Breeders is balanced for the increased results we require - in fertility etc
> Breeders is more of a push on theh system than layers

That sounds confusing ... as if the hens were aware of whether their 
eggs are for eating or hatching. I think broadly that if they don't eat 
it then their eggs will not have it. Except the calcium/phosphorus which 
any laying bird needs, lack of, potentially causing skeletal problems.
> you are not comparing like with like
> Free range feed - like Dodson and Horrell; Marriages; Allen and Page is only
> 16% protein and they are not feeds that the major indoor commercials use in
> huge quantities I would suggest
> These are formulated for the free range and back yard bird
> Talk to their nutritionists - very interesting people

I see what you mean about feed companies, I was thinking that you were 
talking more along the lines of BOCM Pauls etc.
I wasn't suggesting that anyone who wants chickens just for eggs should 
feed growers indefinitely.

> Granted as I have said before I now take Spillers off the list as they do
> not consider their formulation much at all

I'm surprised at Allen & Page's nutritionists after what I've just read.
> Other considerations would presumably not be of
> > any concern to the commercials since the birds which they are interested
> > in don't need to live very long?
> > Don't know how much relevance life expectancy has regarding nutrition.
> Well we have had 10 year old birds fed exactly that way - Black rocks which
> are to some degree commerical and certainly lay well
> We are talking about Speckedlys here
> Long life is not bred into them - thats genetics not feeding
> They have been bred to mature around the 18 - 20 weeks - and their bodies
> will be changing - you cannot stop that and I certainly would not want to
> interfere with that
> so it is better to feed what has been balanced for the bird at that stage in
> her life

I can see what you're saying & I respect that fact that you know a lot 
more than I do about poultry nutrition (& hybrids) . I do find it rather 
difficult when different knowledgeable people say different things. I 
suspect that at the end of the day, the exact age when one changes from 
grower to layers is probably not that critical.
> You have different birds and are doing different things with them - so you
> can have a different regime.

I use breeder pellets because I can get them. Some of the breeders in 
the field enclosures (1/2 acres) get game cover (13% protein) in the 
winter. Someone recommended it for the non winter laying breeders. Why 
do you say that this is a bad idea?
--

Regards


Krys
www.lluestfarmpoultry.co.uk