Re: Switching from growers to layers

"Krys Francis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jill
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
> >
> >"Krys Francis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jill
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
> >> I'm curious about this. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about
poultry
> >> nutrition but many of the long time breeders who can't obtain breeder
> >> pellets say that they use growers (without coccidiostats) plus offer
> >> calcified seaweed & grit. I realise that Speckledies aren't going to be
> >> breeders but I had the impression that the most important differences
> >> were higher vitamins & protein in grower, higher calcium & minerals in
> >> layers.
> >> Come on then give us an in depth lesson in poultry nutrition:-))
> >:~))
> >no indepth lesson - I don't have time just now to find the references I
have
> >read about the various nutritional differences and uses of the two
> >but there is just simplicity  ----
> >Layers ration is formulated to be optimum for laying hens - both those
> >coming into lay and while laying and most especially those that are
> >commercially bred.
>
> To push them into giving the optimum number of eggs in their first year
> & then they kill them?

hmmmm
yet your suggestion is to keep them on a higher protein and push them even
harder
Breeder production is harder than simple layers
The point is the ration is of the correct balance for layers
Breeders is balanced for the increased results we require - in fertility etc
Breeders is more of a push on theh system than layers

you are not comparing like with like
Free range feed - like Dodson and Horrell; Marriages; Allen and Page is only
16% protein and they are not feeds that the major indoor commercials use in
huge quantities I would suggest
These are formulated for the free range and back yard bird
Talk to their nutritionists - very interesting people
Granted as I have said before I now take Spillers off the list as they do
not consider their formulation much at all

Other considerations would presumably not be of
> any concern to the commercials since the birds which they are interested
> in don't need to live very long?
> Don't know how much relevance life expectancy has regarding nutrition.
Well we have had 10 year old birds fed exactly that way - Black rocks which
are to some degree commerical and certainly lay well
We are talking about Speckedlys here
Long life is not bred into them - thats genetics not feeding
They have been bred to mature around the 18 - 20 weeks - and their bodies
will be changing - you cannot stop that and I certainly would not want to
interfere with that
so it is better to feed what has been balanced for the bird at that stage in
her life

You have different birds and are doing different things with them - so you
can have a different regime.

Its horses for courses - feed for the breeding; type and use

>
> >Growers is to optimize the stage before that
> >I would guess there is a dovetailing of the needs of the commercial bird
and
> >the breeding of commercial types to the feeds available - feed
optimization
> >is one of the most critical guides in the development of the commercial
> >hybrids.
> >
> >As you say breeders can have different requirements - you are working on
> >fertility and eggs as young chick potential.
> >Often the birds will be older - well certainly in older times no self
> >respecting breeder bred from pullets to produce good breeding pullets. [a
> >major reason was that you knew too little about their abilities]
>
> But what would the pullets have been fed? They would still have been
> laying eggs during their first year.

A basic layers ration - the journals are full of it
The eggs were part of the economy of the business - like ourselves
we have layers and breeders
some of the birds will be both in their lifetime

>
> >So their requirements are different
> >- in old days it would not be so much growers pellets but meat and bone
meal
> >and other such additives they still had the use of [but that is going
back
> >to the hey days - 1920-30's]
> >The feed manufacturers - in the main - spend a lot of time and money on
> >optimising the rations for the different stages
> >If growers was designed for commercial layers - it would be called layers
> >not growers
> >
> >Hence why I answered for the situation presented
> >
> >- an owner of commercial hybrids kept for laying moving from the growers
> >stage into the layers stage
>
> Not as technical as I was hoping for.
I know and as I say I do not have time to dig out the formulation stuff
Not convinced that, if offered
> extra calcium & minerals, it would make much difference for the domestic
> producer.
but we are - unfortunately only given a very basic details on the bags
I will try and get some more details soonish - it would be an important
thing to add to the website information for everyone

>
> I've found some possibly interesting info on nutrition in a 1950's
> utility poultry book. Looks like I'll have to try to learn a bit for
> myself:-(
> Trouble is I'm not sure how much I can trust the feed info in this old
> book.... some of the diets include barley!!
but their grains was better nutrtionally than what we have now I understand
The trace elements were higher
They still had access to allsorts of things like meat and bonemeal
supplements
They had cheap cod liver oil which some used

Each book and breeder had his own tweaks and ideas
It depended on so many things but the quality would vary grossly
- where you lived
- what was grown in the locality
- you made the best of materials around you
if you had other stock then there would be cross feeding -

One of the best things we could feed are some of the game cover feeds but
neither you or I have the ground or the climate :~(((
There are also things like Quinoa which looks like perfect chicken feed -
but far too expensive

So its a case of looking at the feed manufacturers and see which you prefer
There are advantages of the small ones in that you can get individual
recipes but there are strong disadvantages in that their supplies will vary
allot and so will the consistency of the feed make up
It will be grossly the same but the balance can change widely
Unfortunately no feed manufacturer has to give us a full breakdown - even
after BASE you would think we would get it
What is on the bag of poultry feed is barely useful

--
regards
Jill Bowis
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