Re: OT - Keyshawn

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Buse) wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > The 'foundation' was there. Couldn't that be said about any coach when
> > he arrives somewhere and wins?
> 
> If you wish to split hairs, I guess you could claim that. I just don't
> think, in this scenario, the foundation was there. Kitna was coming
> on, and Dillon was Dillon, but everyone else was a project.

[Shrugs] I think we're to the point that we're just trying to knock
each other with the wind we spew. :)

> > There's not many coaches that come in and just go apeshit and trade
> > away the entire team for their own guys. Bill Parcells being the
> > exception to the rule. :)
> 
> But that's the same exception as Cincy. I stress yet again, they got
> sued for not being competitive enough. That speaks volumes as to how
> bad they really were.

Yes... but other dynamics went into them being that bad other than
having no talent. The talent was there, the organization was ran piss
poor. 90% of that was Mike Brown's fault. That was what upset the fans
the most.


> > No, no, no. I'm not saying the Tampa job Gruden got was the same as
> > the Bengals at all.
> > 
> > It's all degrees man. It's not like Lewis is going to win a Superbowl
> > this year... in all honesty, I think he'll finish 8-8. Something that
> > I _DO_ feel the Bengals have been for awhile. They've just had shitty
> > coaches.
> 
> That's your opinion, and I can respect that, but if you honestly think
> a team that was hailed mid-season as the worst team in the history of
> the NFL by several knowledgeable NFL media likes, should have been
> 8-8, then you're seeing things in a whole new light. They played so
> horrifically, it was actually discussed, numerous times, if a
> collegiate team could have beaten them. You're telling me that team 
> should have been 8-8? Your opinion is your opinion, but...man oh man.

Not denying they played like shit at all. However, I think Lewis is
proving, the talent _was_ there. They were, by all rights, talented
enough to be an 8-8 team last year. That's my opinion, ofcourse. I
think I even picked them to finish 7-9 last year in the NFL Prediction
thread.

Y'know, I knew they weren't even on the roadmap of NFL contenders...
but I honestly felt last season was a _VAST_ diappointment. As did
msot Bengals fans. That's why they went head hunting over the
off-season.

I mean, looking back at that thread, you've picked Miami to win the
Superbowl the past two seasons. They didn't even make the playoffs
last year. Does that mean they weren't a Superbowl contender -- or
that they jsut underperformed?

The Bengal;s sucked all kinds of ass last year, it's just my opinion
that they way underperformed. They were bad, but not that damn bad.

> > Don't get me wrong, Lewis has done a good job... but Gruden did as
> > well in Oakland and Tampa.
> 
> Different scenarios. Gruden walked into a playoff team a year removed
> from seconds away from making the Super Bowl. An NFC powerhouse
> playoff team, or the Bengals, a franchise that until Lewis got there,
> didn't even have a NFL scouting team. Basically, if a player was a
> free agent, you couldn't access his value to the Bengals because they
> had no way of scouting them. None, no single way, the only franchise
> to _not_ have that.

Well, they had Drew Bledso all but signed... and then Mike Brown
balked at the chance. They had a chance to get Marshall Faulk when
Colts were shopping him in the (98?) draft, and Brown backed out at
the last minute. They later drafted Corey Dillon in the 3rd round I
believe, so maybe that worked out fine.

They were heading the queue on London Fletcher and then decided to
back out because Justin Smith was the answer to their linebacking
woes.

The list goes on and on and on.

> > I can compare this... IMO, the Bengals have been a 7-9 to 8-8 team for
> > awhile. Mr. Brown just can't keep his grubby little paws off the team
> > -- until now -- and he fucked up any kind of chance any other coach
> > had with the Bengals team.
> 
> So, a meddling owner steps aside and suddenly the team wins? 

Duuuuuude. Mike Brown conducted all of the drafts... he told them who
to pick and when. No other coach had any control over the draft...
they may have had minimal input, but he had final say.

He constantly would allow coaches to pursue other players in free
agency [read Fletcher etc...] and when the decision came down to him
to ink the deal, he'd pick some shitty fucker on the squad and tell
the coach 'Yo, we got Joe Blow here who's the answer.'

That fucker even told Lebeau one time to scrap 1/4th of his playbook
because he didn't like the plays.

He would override the coaches when they tried to lay down discipline
on players, by telling the player they were 'forgiven'. Cutting off
the coaches sack and all.

That fucker made it IMPOSSIVLE for previous coaches to even get a shot
at winning with the team.

He didn't back off of his bullshit until the fans hit him in his
wallet. They wanted change or he had to pay them back.

I'm not saying any of the previous coaches woiuld _FOR SURE_ match
Lewis's success... but damn man, none of them even had a chance.

At least he has a chance in hell.

> I think
> it's got a lot more to do with the coach, similar to what we have down
> here in Dallas. The coach has altered the entire perseption of each
> franchise. They've created an aura that each player has learned to
> accept. Winning is to be expected, not celebrated if you "happen" to
> fall into it.

I agree that Lewis has done a good job... but, if Gruden is given too
much credit, then by all means, Lewis has been too.

Gruden came into a franchise in Oakland that hadn't had a winning
season in five or six years. Was 4-12 the season right before he got
there. He turned them around pretty quickly. Kinda like what Lewis has
done.

> > Marvin Lewis just happened to be the man sitting when Brown decided
> > 'hey, I'm gonna keep my hands off my team and let the coach do his
> > thing.'
> 
> Man that's naive. It's your opinion, I can respect that, but good
> Lord. This team wasn't that good that it was suddenly just up to a
> coach, any coach, as long as the owner stepped back. The coach _makes_
> a different.

Read above. I'm not saying any coach could have turned the Bengals
around... I'm saying, no other coach even had a chance. I mean, fuck,
Brown controlled EVERYTHING to do with the team until this season.

He undercut his coaches authority and meddled in the play calling,
play books, schemes, ran the fucking draft war room... and just flat
out, made it impossibvle for another coach to even have a shot.

Maybe Wyche, Lebeau, Schula and the rest sucked. Maybe they did. Or,
maybe they coulda turned the Bengals around and been the feel good
story of their year. I don't know.

I just know, Lewis is the first coach to get a chance with, what I
felt, was a somewhat talented team. Disagree all you want... I still
think they had 7-9 to 8-8 talent last year.

It was just a mess of a team becayuse no one respected the coach... no
one was on the same page... no one executed because of that. They were
a mismanaged mess, and most of that falls on the TOP brass. Not
Lebeau.

Jase