Re: OT - Keyshawn

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Buse) wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
> > Ummmmm, they were 4-12 the season before he came to town. Two years
> > after he got there, they were 12-4 with a stop at 8-8 inbetween.
> > 
> > I'd say he did a pretty damn good job, myself. Like I said, he didn't
> > inherit a goldmine.
> 
> So, in his second year, he had the exact same team he had his tenure
> there. In the year he arrived, the foundation was there. The 0-Line
> and D-Line's where the same. He had Tim Brown, he had Woodson, he had
> half the defensive core still in tact. I'm not saying he walked into a
> Super Bowl winner, but if you're comparing the talent he had, to the
> talent Lewis had, then you're really reaching, IMO.

The 'foundation' was there. Couldn't that be said about any coach when
he arrives somewhere and wins?

There's not many coaches that come in and just go apeshit and trade
away the entire team for their own guys. Bill Parcells being the
exception to the rule. :)

> > > He didn't, he took them and ran. That still took talent, I won't
> > > deny that, just didn't necessarily equate to what Marvin Lewis is
> > > doing now.
> > 
> > Oh, but Lewis has taken talent left behind by several coaches top
> > draft picks. I mean, if we're going to say that 'talent' being
> > somewhere but suddenly playing well is a reason to discredit Gruden,
> > then shouldn't it discredit Lewis as well?
> 
> You're not seriously arguing this, are you? The Bengals fans tried to
> get the team to repay a city tax due to being so uncompetitive. To
> think that he walked into a talent pool that was incredible is fucking
> silly Jase. That team had some skill position players, but lost it's
> best player to Buffalo in the off season.

No, no, no. I'm not saying the Tampa job Gruden got was the same as
the Bengals at all.

It's all degrees man. It's not like Lewis is going to win a Superbowl
this year... in all honesty, I think he'll finish 8-8. Something that
I _DO_ feel the Bengals have been for awhile. They've just had shitty
coaches.

Don't get me wrong, Lewis has done a good job... but Gruden did as
well in Oakland and Tampa.

> > I mean, this same Bengals team that sucked ass had all of this talent
> > before Lewis got there just like that 4-12 team Gruden took over. They
> > suddenly start winning in both cases.
> 
> There's a whole lot different about the two teams, and franchises. The
> Raiders have an owner willing to do whatever it takes to win. The
> Bengals were the worst franchise in the NFL for over 11 years. Wanna
> really compare?

I can compare this... IMO, the Bengals have been a 7-9 to 8-8 team for
awhile. Mr. Brown just can't keep his grubby little paws off the team
-- until now -- and he fucked up any kind of chance any other coach
had with the Bengals team.

Marvin Lewis just happened to be the man sitting when Brown decided
'hey, I'm gonna keep my hands off my team and let the coach do his
thing.'

I just think that the Bengals [much like the Bucs and possibly the
Raiders in their respects] we're an 8-8 team waiting to be released
before Lewis got there. Paul Brown Jr. just didn't give any previous
coach a chance until the fans really busted his balls this off season
with the 'hey bitch, you're no coach and no GM so leave these coaches
alone or pay us back when you go 2-14 again.'

> > Imagine that. If what Lewis is doing is a good coaching job, what
> > Gruden done was equally as good.
> > 
> > The Bengals are even benefited from playing in a soft ass division,
> > IMO. I mean, fuck... they're playing hot potato in the AFC North just
> > to see who comes out the winner. I'd question just how many of these
> > Bengals wins were simply a result of that. I'm even a Bengals fan and
> > I still don't buy into this turnaround yet. Let him bury some key
> > teams, put togethr a couple of seasons above .500 and a few playoff
> > years and then I'll admit, Lewis is an NFL Coaching god.
> 
> Let's see, the division is still a competitive division, it just
> doesn't have a slew of talented teams. Baltimore has beaten Seattle,
> the Browns have looked great at times,

I've only seen the Browns look great once, and that was on Monday
Night Football against the Steelers. Or maybe it was Sunday Night on
ESPN. It was one of the two... when Couch had his best game of his
career, probably.

> Pitt is just...Pitt. It's not
> like the division is the worst in the NFL. Sure, it's not good, but
> the turnaround is there. 

See, I think it is the worst division in the League. They're all
hovering around .500% simply because they keep beating up on each
other and can't do much outside of their division.

> > On a side not, I can't remember a year when the AFC West has been
> > soft.
> 
> I can, how about this year.

Point conceded. This year, the AFC West certainly is sorry. But, more
specifically, in the 96-01 range, the worst team in that division was
8-8 and the best had 12-14 wins! That _was_ the king division in the
AFC most of those seasons.

> San Diego and Oakland are horrific, and
> the Chiefs are the only dominate team. Because the Broncos won a title
> in the 90's (two), doesn't mean the division was completely impossible
> to compete in.

Like I said man... look back through the standings and even team
offensive/defensive stats. That division was frickin' tough back then.

> > > > He took the same team Dungy could never win a Superbowl with, and won
> > > > one.
> > > 
> > > Can't deny those facts, but you can't base that team off the coach. I
> > > think they were a year away regardless of head coach. But, he did win,
> > > Dungy didn't.
> > 
> > This makes no sense to me. Back to the above... if Cincy had all of
> > this same talent before Lewis got there, and he suddenly used it
> > right, and they win... he's a masterful coach.
> 
> They didn't have the same talent. Lewis didn't inherit a team laiden
> with Pro Bowlers and POY candidates. Gruden walked into the best
> defense in the NFL. He walked into very good offensive talent. Lewis
> walked into a death camp. If you really compare, then this is fucking
> silly man.

Ok... I'm not saying Lewis has to win the Superbowl to be successful
in Cincy this year. That'd be nuts.

Both coaches have made their team better, no? If we can give one coach
credit for doing something with a team someone else couldn't... then
it should be given to the next guy.

There's no doubt that Tampa is far more talented than Cincinatti. I'd
lose my right to even talk about football, if I claimed otherwise. ;)

Buuuut, this Cincy talent was there before Lewis got there man, just
like that Tampa talent before Gruden came to town.

I think 7-9 or 8-8 was a reasonable demand for LAST year's Bengals
team. They're just not as bad as they've been playing over the past
four seasons. Now, before that during the Klingler years etc... yeah,
they had some real stinkers. But, my god man... after seven years of
top draft picks and shit, they have talent. Everyone in the Cincy area
knew it too... that's why they busted Brown's chops so hard in the
off-season.

He was ten times the Jerry Jones, Jerry Jones is... but he had about a
tenth of the skill.

Jase