Re: OT - Keyshawn

> Ummmmm, they were 4-12 the season before he came to town. Two years
> after he got there, they were 12-4 with a stop at 8-8 inbetween.
> 
> I'd say he did a pretty damn good job, myself. Like I said, he didn't
> inherit a goldmine.

So, in his second year, he had the exact same team he had his tenure
there. In the year he arrived, the foundation was there. The 0-Line
and D-Line's where the same. He had Tim Brown, he had Woodson, he had
half the defensive core still in tact. I'm not saying he walked into a
Super Bowl winner, but if you're comparing the talent he had, to the
talent Lewis had, then you're really reaching, IMO.
 
> > He didn't, he took them and ran. That still took talent, I won't
> > deny that, just didn't necessarily equate to what Marvin Lewis is
> > doing now.
> 
> Oh, but Lewis has taken talent left behind by several coaches top
> draft picks. I mean, if we're going to say that 'talent' being
> somewhere but suddenly playing well is a reason to discredit Gruden,
> then shouldn't it discredit Lewis as well?

You're not seriously arguing this, are you? The Bengals fans tried to
get the team to repay a city tax due to being so uncompetitive. To
think that he walked into a talent pool that was incredible is fucking
silly Jase. That team had some skill position players, but lost it's
best player to Buffalo in the off season.
 
> I mean, this same Bengals team that sucked ass had all of this talent
> before Lewis got there just like that 4-12 team Gruden took over. They
> suddenly start winning in both cases.

There's a whole lot different about the two teams, and franchises. The
Raiders have an owner willing to do whatever it takes to win. The
Bengals were the worst franchise in the NFL for over 11 years. Wanna
really compare?

> Imagine that. If what Lewis is doing is a good coaching job, what
> Gruden done was equally as good.
> 
> The Bengals are even benefited from playing in a soft ass division,
> IMO. I mean, fuck... they're playing hot potato in the AFC North just
> to see who comes out the winner. I'd question just how many of these
> Bengals wins were simply a result of that. I'm even a Bengals fan and
> I still don't buy into this turnaround yet. Let him bury some key
> teams, put togethr a couple of seasons above .500 and a few playoff
> years and then I'll admit, Lewis is an NFL Coaching god.

Let's see, the division is still a competitive division, it just
doesn't have a slew of talented teams. Baltimore has beaten Seattle,
the Browns have looked great at times, Pitt is just...Pitt. It's not
like the division is the worst in the NFL. Sure, it's not good, but
the turnaround is there. It's a mental thing now, they believe they
have a chance. When you walk into that scenario, attempting to turn
around an _entire_ franchise that's been losing for year after
year...Lewis had more to accomplish then Gruden. Lewis is a coaching
God, and that will all play out very soon.

> On a side not, I can't remember a year when the AFC West has been
> soft.

I can, how about this year. San Diego and Oakland are horrific, and
the Chiefs are the only dominate team. Because the Broncos won a title
in the 90's (two), doesn't mean the division was completely impossible
to compete in.

> > > He took the same team Dungy could never win a Superbowl with, and won
> > > one.
> > 
> > Can't deny those facts, but you can't base that team off the coach. I
> > think they were a year away regardless of head coach. But, he did win,
> > Dungy didn't.
> 
> This makes no sense to me. Back to the above... if Cincy had all of
> this same talent before Lewis got there, and he suddenly used it
> right, and they win... he's a masterful coach.

They didn't have the same talent. Lewis didn't inherit a team laiden
with Pro Bowlers and POY candidates. Gruden walked into the best
defense in the NFL. He walked into very good offensive talent. Lewis
walked into a death camp. If you really compare, then this is fucking
silly man.

> If all of this Tampa talent was there before Gruden got there and he
> suddenly got them over that hurdle, Dungy was da man and Gruden just
> waltzed in and took all the credit.
> 
> Don't get me wrong... Dungy did a fine job assembling a defense in
> Tampa. In fact, I think they were wrong when they fired him because he
> had been such a good coach.
> 
> Buuuuuut, results talk man. Dungy had that same team for 4 seasons and
> constantly came up short. Gruden had them for one and won the
> Superbowl. Now, maybe it was there time... but hell fire, if a guy
> can't win it in four, what's to say he could win it in five?
> 
> Just the same... if we're calling 'coaching talent' the ability to win
> with players other's couldn't win with [as in Lewis' case], then
> Gruden certainly qualifies on both his Raiders stint and his
> Buccaneers stint.

I gave him credit in Oakland...I refuse to give him a slew of credit
in Tampa. It's Barry Switzer all over again. Sorry, I'll never alter
my opinion.

> > > I know it's that time of the year when everyone beats up on the
> > > favorites... happens every year when the previous dominant team
> > > becomes human once again. But damn man, give Gruden some credit.
> > > 
> > > He may not be the best coach in the league [I'll cast my vote for
> > > Vermeil] but he's in the top five.
> > 
> > The fuck he is. Parcells, Vermeil, Reid, Jeff...gah, Tenn's coach, I
> > think Marvin Lewis is better _now_ then he is. Shit, Bellicheck
> > defintely is...maybe even Baltimore's head coach...christ I can't
> > think of names. I'd take all of them over Gruden. Part of that is
> > bias, part of that is my honest opinion. The guy just isn't a
> > God-send.
> 
> Ehhhh, so we don't agree here... they're all fine coaches. I just
> would have Gruden higher on my list than some of those guys.

Fair enough. 

> > > > > Bob Morris
> > > > > Bill Callahan: One of many NFL coaches soon to be ex-NFL coaches after
> > > > > this season, along with Jauron, Spurrier, maybe Schottenheimer, maybe
> > > > > Williams, maybe Wannstedt... geez, the ex-NFL coach list could be a
> > > > > long one after this season ends.
> > > > 
> > > > I see all of them gone sans Spurrier. I think he'll wait one more
> > > > year. Wannstedt is a close call.
> > > 
> > > In Wannstedt can't win at least one playoff game this year, I'd say
> > > the Dolphins were fools for not firing him. I mean, he sucked in
> > > Chicago and so far, every team he's had in Miami has grossly
> > > underachieved.
> > > 
> > > It's time he puts up or shuts up.
> > > 
> > > I honestly don't think Schottenheimer will be gone from San Diego
> > > unless he decides to quit. I mean, hell... the intelligent folk in San
> > > Diego decide to get rid of the heart and soul of their defense with
> > > Rodney Harrison and Junior Seau and they expected what?
> > 
> > His job could be on the line if he continues to tell people that Drew
> > Brees is their future. Man, something happened to that guy this year,
> > can't say what...but something sure as hell did.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised at all if San Diego got rid of Schottenheimer.
> Nothing surprises me anymore in the NFL. Like stated earlier, it
> shocked the hell out of me whant Tampa got rid of Dungy... so if a guy
> like Dungy with success on his side at a team can get the axe,
> Schottenheimer certainly could.
> 
> I just think that, with them getting rid of their heart and soul of
> that team on defense... Schottenheimer deserves another season to see
> if he can improve the team.
> 
> What I think is fair and what the man writing the checkes thinks is
> fair, are two different things.
> 
> I just don't know what some of these teams expect. They hire a coach
> to a shit club and expect to win 10 games over night. I know that, if
> in any sport, it can certainly be done in the NFL... but damn.
> 
> Jase

I agree with the ridiculous expectations of NFL owners of their
coaches. What these people really expect blows me away.

Buse