Re: OT - Keyshawn

> > Like I said, I've looked at the facts of the case and have formed
an
> > opinion that he was directly involved. Maybe he didn't actually
stab
> > anyone, but he was involved in the altercation (several witnesses
> > stated that they sawy him punching and kicking the two men), then
lied
> > about it to police. Far as I'm concerned, he's a murderer.
>
> That makes absolutely no sense, but ok, your opinion is just that, I
> really can't say it's wrong.

I can't explain my position any clearer, so if it still doesn't make
sense to you, then I guess it's best to just drop it.

> > > I agree, but he's still damn good.
> >
> > Average, maybe a little better than average. But damn good? Nah.
>
> That's just out and out hatred for the man. I've shown you
statistics,
> accolades and even a Super Bowl ring. You still think he's less then
> average, not much more I can do.

I specifically said he's average, maybe a little better than average,
Buse. Not "less than average" as you claim. My words are right above
yours. And frankly, you haven't shown me any statistics or accolades
that put him in the "elite" class you seem to want to put him in. In
fact, I've shown you *career* statistics that show him to be an
average receiver. And a Super Bowl victory is a *team* accomplishment,
not an individual accomplishment.

Is Keyshawn a spare? No. Does he suck? No. Is he great? No. Is he
damned good? No, his career stats don't even support that position,
IMO. So what does that make him? Average, maybe a little better than
average.

> > > 9,10.5,7,12.5,16.5...just some sack numbers for someone that got
> > > doubled teamed consistently before the emergence of Booger
McFarland
> > > and the signing of Simeon Rice. Still care to say he's
overrated?
> > > Hell, he had two picks last year, for a 2 gap DT, that's fucking
> > > incredible. Former Defensive player of the year if I recall...I
> >  don't
> > > know, sounds like he's pretty damn good to me, Greg.
> >
> > He's had double digit sacks three times in 8 seasons. Are those
> > numbers good? Yes, they are. Stellar? Not for someone that claims
to
> > be the "QB Killa", IMO.
>
> Boy you can't let that go, can you? It's a name, something to play
up,
> I don't think he actually meant he killed QB's, or that he was the
> best pass rusher in the NFL. He's never said that, or claimed that.

No, I can't let it go. If you're gonna give yourself a nickname, at
least live up to the hype you're trying to make for yourself. Sapp
doesn't.

>  Compare that with Strahan, who's had
> > double-digit sacks 7 of the last 8 seasons. Or Jevon Kearse, who's
had
> > double-digit sacks all but 1 of his 5 seasons. But those are all
DE's,
> > you say? Well, how about La'Roi Glover, who's averaging the same
> > amount of sacks/g (.56) and *more* tckls/g (3.27/2.86) than Sapp?
Or
> > Bryant Young, who's averaging just a tad less sacks/g (.46/.56)
but
> > more tckls/g (3.06/2,86) than Sapp? Both DT's, neither get the ink
or
> > airtime that Sapp does. Why? Because Sapp is the self-proclaimed
"QB
> > Killa".
>
> Are those this season? Or career stats?

Career.

> And you can't compare those
> two to Sapp, due to the defensive schemes and how the team plays.
Both
> of those guys you mentioned are Pro Bowlers so they are obviously
> extremely talented. Again, with the QB Killa. Let's do this Greg,
> let's rip out every single athlete's ability to speak, Lord knows
> grown men can't speak, and let's just make them play. No talking
> damn't! None at all!

I'd be for that. :)

Seriously, I don't mind an athlete that markets himself. I don't even
mind a little trash-talk, in the heat of the game. But Sapp (with the
help of the media) has marketed himself as "one of the best defensive
players in the NFL", and he's not even the best defensive player ON
HIS TEAM. And when he takes it too far and the NFL *finally* demands
that he act his age and act like the professional he's supposed to be,
he claims that the system that has made him a *very* rich man is akin
to slavery. You may not think that's wrong, Buse, but I do and so do a
lot of other people.

> > Which is the problem. Either he A) knows he's wrong and won't
admit
> > it, which makes him less of a man or B) actually believes that NFL
> > players are like modern-day slaves, which makes him borderline
> > retarded. Either way, it was a stupid thing to say and to not
retract
> > it is an act of a mule-headed big-mouth who believes his own hype.
>
> Read above. It's his opinion, not matter what you think of it. If
you
> stand by what you say, in the face of people who tell you how wrong
> you are, and how retarded you are, then you earn my respect. People
> that waiver, and retract shit due to pressure are cowards. Sapp
might
> be an idiot for saying what he did, but god damn't, at least he
stands
> up and said...I said it, fuck you if you think I'm wrong.

I like you Buse, you know that, and I respect your opinion. However, I
think it's a damned shame that you respect a man that refuses to back
down from an idiotic statement than a man that recognizes when he's
said something stupid and apologizes for it. An apology is not a sign
of weakness, Buse, it's a sign of character.

I'll leave it at that.

> > No, I can't see the merit in it. My upper management has done
things I
> > don't agree with, with the latest example being taking away our
> > ability to use non-work-related electrical appliances (radios,
> > coffee-makers, etc) in our cubes as part of a cost-cutting
measure.
> > So, can I say that that's akin to slave-masters telling us what to
do?
> > Sure I can. It would be idiotic, but I could say it.
>
> You can't see merit in a league that makes millions off of someone's
> likeness, yet limits their commercial ability by limiting facial
> identity?

Warren Sapp is currently doing a deodorant commercial, at least one
endorsement that I know of. He's also one of the first guys the
reporters put a camera in front of before and after the game (except
when they lose, when Sapp is inexplicably hard to locate). He's now
got his own show on the NFL network with Strahan. The NFL doesn't do
shit to limit his marketability, except tell him to leave his fucking
helment on during the game and quit skipping through the other teams'
stretch lines like a fucking idiot. In fact, I think the NFL has been
too damned lenient with Sapp and players like him over the last few
years. Now that they're trying to regain a little control, Sapp cries
"slavery" and claims the NFL is out to get him.

I can't believe you're buying into his bullshit, Buse.

> You can't see the merit in the ability of a league to limit
> every act you say, due to their over-protective nature? You can't
see
> the merit of someone complaining about a league that bitched and
> moaned so loudly about something as little as an ESPN fictitional
> show? You can't see the merit in someone locked into a system in
which
> the team gets rewards, the owners get the rewards and the players
get
> the rewards, but that the players have absolutely no freedom? You
> think fining players for their socks being too low isn't ridiculous?
> Or that players can't spike a fucking ball when they reach the
> excitement of scoring?

Since when has the NFL said you can't spike the ball after scoring?
All they want to control is choreographed scoring celebrations that
are not only disrespectful, but take too damned much time. And I don't
blame the NFL a damned bit for trying to crack down on players that
get up and do a stupid dance after they tackle a guy 6 yards downfield
or bat away a pass on first down when they're team is down by three
TD's.

> Sure as fuck, everyone makes millions, but no one makes more then
the
> NFL, and no one controls their players quite like the NFL. I'm not
> saying Sapp was correct. Comparing a millionaire to a slave insults
> years of biggotry and hatred towards African-Americans. All I'm
> saying, is that someone attempted to point out some injustices, did
it
> incorrectly, and is now getting slammed becuase he had something to
> say.

So why doesn't he back off of and apologize for the "incorrect"
statement? Why doesn't he come out and say "look, I know my comments
comparing the NFL to a slave system were disrespectful and stupid, and
I shouldn't have used those terms to explain my opinion. I apologize
for the way I said it, but I stand behind my opinion that the NFL is
too restrictive of their players and the way we play the game".

Would that make him a coward? No. Would it show some character on his
part? IMO, yes.

> > Like I said, you cannot argue intangibles. Sapp may be
well-respected
> > by his teammates and a leader in the locker-room. He may very well
be
> > the glue that holds that defense together. But those are not what
the
> > media (or he) has hyped up. What's been hyped up is his on-field
play
> > and by the measure of on-field play (statistics), he is slightly
> > better than average at best and steadily declining.
>
> _Your_ opinion, not the opinion of nearly every NFL person in the
know
> that continually votes him one of the best year in and year out.
> "Steadily declining"? Shit yes Greg, he's in his 10th or 11th year
> playing DEFENSIVE TACKLE. Christ, is he supposed to get 18 sacks a
> season playing one of the toughest positions in football?

Actually, he's in only his 9th season. And after hitting 17 sacks in
2000 (a damned good year for any defensive lineman), he hasn't hit
double-digits since then.

Not very good for a "QB Killa". ;)

Maybe if he called himself the "Run Stuffa" or the "Hole Plugga", I
wouldn't have such an issue with him.

> > Besides, who's got credible young pitchers, especially starters,
that
> > they're willing to trade away or let sign somewhere else?
Oakland's
> > got their three studs signed through 2005, Florida's youngsters
are
> > tied up long-term (I believe), Wood/Prior aren't going anywhere,
etc.
>
> Coulda attempted to get Foulke. Or just made the pitch to sign
> SOMEONE. I just want some fucking activity.

The winter meetings are coming up, maybe they'll try to make some
moves then. But don't look for any bigtime free-agent signings of any
big name (i.e. big contract) pitchers. The Rangers are looking to cut
payroll to meet revenue, not increas payroll. It's part of the reason
A-Rod has been so vocal lately, as it goes against everything Hicks
told him when they signed him.

Greg