Re: Petition: UKC and ADBA Illegal Registration

On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 22:52:57 -0500, "Spinach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I think -- but I don't know for
>> sure -- that recessive gene pairings are an important part of the
>> Hapsburg story.
>
>  Not according to the web page link you provided, which says quite clearly
>that the Hapsburg Lip is a simple dominant trait.
>
>>  I challenge you to find one credible source who
>> argues that Charles II's congenital deformities may have been the
>> result of something other than inbreeding.
>
>   That's immaterial, since I wasn't talking about his congenital facial
>deformity; neither mental retardation nor impotence are "congenital
>deformities".

Hmmm.  

I'll tell you what, Spinach.  I will concede this debate.  You win on
every point of erudition.  In fact, if you told me that you, yourself,
were the last of the Hapsburgs -- living proof that Charles II was not
really impotent -- I would believe you.  You may or may not have the
jawline to match the pedigree, but you've certainly got the wit.
>
>  How about if you provide me (since you're the one who brought the
>Hapsburgs in) with a source which says definitively that his mental slowness
>and impotence WERE caused by inbreeding, and not by some other factor?
>
>> Proper breeding of dogs involves selecting
>> parents who have been purged of bad genetic code that may express
>> itself in a future generation.
>
>  I don't think there's really any such thing as "purging" an animal of "bad
>genetic code".
>
>> If you introduce a good-looking dog
>> with fake papers
>
>  "Fake papers"?? That's an odd tangent. Precisely what sort of "fake
>papers" do you mean, and how often do you think this fakery occurs?
>
>>and rogue genetics (bad recessive genes) into the
>> equation, you fuck up the breed,
>
>   And if you're "introducing" an outside dog, seems to me this is the exact
>opposite of inbreeding.
>
>>You end up with a lot of puppies that don't
>> conform to the breed standards, and some that are outright deformed.
>> Do you seriously doubt that this is a real problem???
>
>  Actually, yes, I doubt it as you're describing it; most of the dogs I know
>who have serious genetic defects conform well (physically, anyway) to the
>breed standard, and inbreeding is often done to "fix" some breed-standard
>trait that's desired.
>
>
> >If you do, you
>> haven't been reading enough
>
>  Reading what, precisely? What are your sources?
>
>>and you haven't been watching enough
>> Animal Planet TV.
>
>  I don't watch *any* TV.
>
Ok, fine.  If you don't watch TV, you must get your news and
information from the written word, right?  So let's you and me go real
slow, and I'll try to walk you through this using the written word as
our medium of communication.

But first, take a deep breath and squint to stimulate blood flow to
the parts of your brain where the bone is pressing in.  Make sure your
jaw isn't blocking your view of the computer screen.

Now, are you ready???

Here is a brief quote from a web page written by someone who knows
something about dog-breeding:

>The purpose of inbreeding is "to preserve and fix desirable 
>characters of and to eliminate unfavorable characters from a stock". 
>What this definition fails to clarify is that this same breeding may preserve 
>and fix (set, consistent, make stable) those traits, characteristics and 
>genetic disorders that are NOT desirable. 

Here is the link:
http://members.aol.com/KatoKennel/bred2.htm

Now then, here is another brief excerpt from a different web page:

>"Most purebred dogs have health problems due to inbreeding," 
>said Ed Donahue, a volunteer for Mighty Mutts, a no-kill animal 
>shelter in New York City. "That’s just something that happens 
>when you breed a dog with its cousin."
>
>Certainly, there is higher incidence of inherited diseases among 
>purebreds. West Highland terriers are known for their tendency 
>to develop allergic skin diseases; canine hip dysplasia is notorious 
>among golden retrievers and other large and giant breed dogs. 
>Among dalmatians, there is an especially high incidence of seizures. 
>
>"With increased popularity of a certain breed, we find that 
>weaknesses in their medical and psychological makeup [increase]," 
>said Dr. Bernadine Cruz, a veterinarian practicing in Laguna Hills, 
>Calif. who believes that there are both pros and cons to mutt ownership. 
>"That is one of the reasons why cockers have so many skin problems, 
>goldens with good hips are so hard to find, and rotts have elbow problems."

And here is the link:
http://www.vetcentric.com/magazine/magazineArticle.cfm?ARTICLE=Nuts%20About%20Mutts

Do you see my point?  (Twitch your jaw for "yes," wet your pants for
"no.")

Charlie