Re: Ruling Question: Can you stop a spell by untapping the land used for it?

tendim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Chris Mattern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> You do not tap land to cast spells.  You tap land to get mana to
>> cast spells.  I will elaborate on this below.
>
>Yes, this I already know.  However, I obviously did not articulate
>myself clearly enough.  I was referring to the source of the mana in
>question; i.e.: destroy the source (or counteract the act that brought
>the source into play: you tap the land for mana, so if it is no longer
>tapped, then no mana can be produced).

The mana already WAS produced, and is floating in your mana pool (or
already used in payment); untapping a land doesn't do anything to mana
currently in your mana pool.

Lands Are Not Mana and vice versa; lands are permanents, while mana is
an invisible imaginary quantity of stuff that exists in your "mana pool",
unseen. Almost all lands have some ability that can PRODUCE mana on
resolution. This does not mean that after you use the ability you can then
somehow "unannounce" or "unplay" the ability to make it go in reverse and
remove mana from your pool; only paying it to some cost, manaburn, or
a few specific spell/ability effects can do so (Power Drain, Pygmy Hippo).

Once you have tapped a land for mana, you have a tapped land, and mana
floating in your pool. Fiddling with the land AFTER that does precisely
nothing to the mana.

>> You haven't destroyed any mana.  You destroyed a land.  This *isn't*
>> the same thing.
>
>I never said I destroyed the mana.  Again, this goes to my point above.

Again, you're confused; you destroyed the LAND, which does nothing at all
to the MANA POINTS floating in your mana pool (or already used to pay a
cost). Destroying the land puts the land permanent from your in-play
zone into your graveyard. Untapping it changes the position of the land
permanent. Neither of these involve any change in the amount of mana floating
in your mana pool. And you cannot 'retroactively undo' ANYTHING in Magic.

>I have destroyed the source of the mana.

Sure, fine; why would this do anything to the mana point(s) it/themself/ves?

>> Your question reveals both a lack of understanding of how spells are
>> paid for and also a lack of understanding of basic timing.  When you
>> tap a land for a spell, what you are actually doing is tapping a land
>> to put a point of the appropriate mana in your mana pool.  Once you have
>> done this, there is no further relationship between the mana point and the
>> land; what happens to the land at this point is irrelevant.  Untapping
>> the land does not cause the mana point to be "sucked back" (in fact
>> the land's controller can then tap it again to get *another* point of
>> mana) nor does destroying the land cause the mana point to be "destroyed".
>> The mana point is still in your mana pool and can be used to cast a spell.
>
>Again, improper wording on my part.  I was referring to the source of
>the mana.

You didn't read what he wrote; he's just explained that the land, the
"source" of the mana (actually the source of the ABILITY whose RESOLUTION
produced mana in your mana pool) has nothing to do with the mana itself, once
the mana is produced. You may do anything you like to the land (assuming you
have a spell, ability, or rule telling you to of course) after it produces
mana, and it won't affect already-produced mana one bit.

>> As concerning timing; costs, including mana costs, are paid when the spell
>> is played, not when it resolves.  That means when you "respond" to a spell
>> (i.e., you play a spell or effect while the original spell is still on the
>> stack waiting to be resolved), the costs have *already been paid, and are
>> over and done with*.  You cannot "undo" the paying of the cost.
>
>Which means, that if a player has a card out that requires non-creature
>spells to have an additional cost of 1, and the player does not pay the
>additional cost immediately, the spell fizzles out?

Er, the player has no CHOICE but to 'pay the additional cost immediately';
when you figure up the mana cost or activation cost of a spell or ability,
in 409.1f, you get a chance to play mana abilities (only), then you PAY
that total cost in 409.1h, and you have no way to "partially pay". You
either pay in full, or find you made a mistake and CAN'T pay in full and
reverse back to just before the beginning of announcement.

Some spells or abilities, like Mana Leak or Disruptive Pitmage's ability,
cause you to pay mana or get a spell countered. That's not an "additional
cost" in Magic terms, and is done when the spell or ability whose EFFECT
asks for mana payment resolves. Sphere of Resistance, Gloom, etc., add
additional costs that must be paid on announcement along with the regular
cost. [Adding such an effect AFTER a spell or ability is announced has
no effect at all on the already-paid cost.]

Dave
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