Re: Vox Senis and Sudden Reversal

On 3 Dec 2003 10:24:32 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Eric Simon) scrawled:

>"Reyda" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>> and the logic behind this, is ... ???
>
>In all of the cases LSJ said "No" to, there is no master card being
>"played".  By card text of Sudden Reversal ("Burn a master card played
>by another Methuselah as the card is played."), there must be
>something PLAYED for it to be cancelled.  Yes, you are discarding
>cards in each of those cases, but when it's during the Master phase,
>you are doing so only as a Master Phase Action, which does not
>automatically render the discarded card "played".  How does this
>compare to Vox Senis?  Let's read two card texts:
>
>Brothers Grimm
>Blah blah blah...Any Methuselah can use a master phase action and
>discard a master card from his or her hand to take control of the
>Brothers Grimm...Blah blah.
>
>Vox Senis
>Blah blah...Alternatively, during a referendum, you may discard this
>card from your hand as an out-of-turn master to gain 3 votes in that
>referendum.
>
>
>So the original question was, does this wording mean Vox Senis is
>"played"?  To which the answer is "Yes".  This does not change any
>previously existing situations, because the wordings are not similar. 
>The difference is that Brothers Grimm and Tension in the Ranks refer
>to "Master Phase Action" (not cancellable) while Vox Senis refers to
>"Out-of-turn Master" (cancellable).

wha...?

Chas:
When Chas announces an action, any other Methuselah can discard a
master card as an out-of-turn master to cause the action to fail.

Vox Senis:
Alternatively, during a referendum, you may discard this
card from your hand as an out-of-turn master to gain 3 votes in that
referendum.

So Chas is cancellable? no, he's not, according to LSJ.

Discarded is NOT played. I don't see why Vox can be SR'd but Chas
can't.

Can I DI someone ditching a combat card to burn Chiram's Hold? No.
Discarding is not playing.

The only difference i can see is Vox Senis makes itself an oot master
card when you discard it. the other effects are not oot master cards.
they're just oot effects, which happen to require master cards.

I'd be all happy and less confused if Vox Senis said 
'Alternatively, during a referendum, you may *play* this card from
your hand (to the ash heap) as an out-of-turn master to gain 3 votes
in that referendum.'

...then i'd see why it's SR-able.

i guess it was writen it's current way to stop people thinking it goes
in play when you play it as an oot.

salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm