Re: Coming back to DnD

JB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Bruce Grubb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brandon Cope) wrote:

<snip>

> > > So a 1st level party should be able to kill a very old, very large dragon?
>
> > Why would a party HAVE to start at 1st level? :-)  GURPS parties can start
> > at any point total the GM want.  All the way from 1st level Commoner
> > equivalent (25pts, realistic) to virtual demi-gods (500pts+, cinematic).
>
> They don't.

Excuse me, but they do.  I've played or GM'ed in GURPS games where 
characters started at 50 points, 100 points, 125 points, 150 points, 200 
points, and 500 points.


> > Even with its improvements D&D still has problems which becomes obvious
> > with the NPC classes.  There is still this class for everything and
> > everything with its class mentality we had back in AD&D1 (which is why I
> > have been refering to a 20 year book BTW).
>
> What the fuck are you babbling about now? It's a class system and in D&D
> everyone is a 1st level something. Whoopdy do! Why is that a problem and
> why is it obvious with NPC classes?

Because you end up having to come up with new classes for unique 
characters that can't be shoehorned into existing classes.  After a 
while, you can get to the point where there are nearly as many classes 
as there are NPCs.  (It's something like the background in the 
"Discworld" novels, where the entrepenuer C.M.O.T. Dibbler was forced to 
join the guild that most closely matched his business, and ended up 
joining the "Guild of C.M.O.T. Dibblers".)


> > I mean does there really need
> > to be 'classes' like the Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, or Warrior?
>
> Why shouldn't there be?

Because those group names are useless as descriptions.  What is an 
"Expert" expert at, and how is that different from being "Adept" at 
something?  (In various point-based systems, both terms are used to 
indicate high skill levels.)  What does every "Commoner" have in common? 
 (In the real world, usually nothing.)  Does a "Warrior" fight from 
horseback with a lance, or on foot with a bow, or from the back lines 
with a missile weapon?  (These are all very different skills, which 
don't offer very much crossover between each other in the real world.) 
How did the "Aristocrat" get to the aristocracy - through accident of 
birth (in which case he's just a lucky dilettante), through force of 
arms (in which case he's a warrior of some sort), through divine favour 
(which might make him a priest, or just some random commoner), through 
proper application of skills (which makes him a politician), or some 
other way?


> > Also and more importantly is you want to have a sword and sorcery character
> > from elsewhere running around how do import them?  I mean just what class
> > and level is some one like Lina Inverse from Slayers anime?  Or the fighter
> > mage who turns into a mouse when she cast spells (it a curse) from Ruin
> > Explorers?  Or the main characters from the old Thundarr cartoon?  Even
> > anime that came from AD&D1 (Record of Lodos War) doesn't import well.
>
> Cartoons and Anime suck 

My, such a well-reasoned argument you present...  <sigh>

Very well, then:  What class and level is Gandalf, or Thomas Covenant, 
or Rincewind, or Xena?

(If you think *all* fiction sucks, then what class and level was 
Spartacus, or Geronimo, or Xerxes?)

>       but ask Sea Wasp. He's probably stated them out.

If he has, I wouldn't mind getting copies...


> > With GURPS you can assign the skill gestimating on their knowledge of those
> > skills.  To do it with D&D is a mess.  What class is Deedlit and what level
> > is she? Is Etoh a priest or due to his age an adept?
>
> Why is it a mess in D&D? You guess, just like GURPS.

He's asking *for* your guess.  If you don't know the source, that's 
fine, but please say so.


> > Then there is Slayn
> > who cast spells more like a GURPS mage (they tired him) than any 'standard'
> > AD*D1 magic-user.
>
> Just like GURPS would be rubbish at representing a Vancian wizard. Big
> deal.

Nonsense - just give him the Book-Bound Mage disadvantage.

--
Rob Kelk                Personal address: robkelk -at- jksrv -dot- com
          Any opinions here are mine, not the Government's.